Active B12 Protocol Basics

[garyfritz]

Good for you, @aturtles! I tried injections, but they didn't really work very well for me. I still had to take almost as many Country Life sublinguals as I took without the injections, so what's the point? Glad it worked well for you.

Are you doing intramuscular injections, or subcutaneous? Freddd says subcutaneous is better, because it diffuses the B12 into your system slower and over a longer period.

 

[aturtles]

@garyfritz, injections are working so far. The effect is more noticable for me than the sublinguals, though of course more expensive. (And then there's the needle thing, but I resolve to get over that.)

I expect to keep using the sublinguals on the days I don't do the injections. Working with a naturopath who is impressing me with her knowledge of methylation and adrenals and the like, so we're working it out together, and just in the initial stages of figuring out doses for injections.

Intramuscular. She seemed to think they were best. I did ask her about subcutaneous but had forgotten why, so now that you've kindly reminded me, I'll ask her again next time I see her. Thank you!

 

[aturtles]

@garyfritz, thanks to you, a change of plans -- after your comment I went back and read up on Freddd's comments on IM versus SC injections spike versus duration, then sent my ND his analysis and conclusions and she agreed his analysis made sense, and said she might move toward SC for more patients as a result. (Thank you, @Freddd -- you affect more lives than you know.) Now we are doing SC instead. (Learn to love the needle! ) I'm really pleased to have found an ND who is knowledgeable yet willing to learn more -- let's hope it's the wave of the future.

 

[garyfritz]

Good for you, @aturtles! My naturopath is also very interested in what I'm learning. She says I'm "a real research gooroo."

What I'm learning is that we have to present the B12 to our bodies, but we can't use it in that form. It has to be picked up by the Transcobalamin II "transport vessels" to deliver it to the liver & brain. There's a limited number of TCII's so we want to load up as many of them as we can -- and that means keeping the B12 level high as much of the time as possible. IM and sublingual spike it for a short time, but SC keeps it high for a longer time, thus more TCII picks it up. I'm testing a different delivery method that I'll report on soon that's supposed to work even better -- we'll see!

 

[ahmo]

I've just followed a tip from @stridor and begun taking my folate by emptying out capsule or putting tablet into my gum. I'm now literally using/needing less than half than what I'd been on. I'd been taking 15mg for about 5 months, this week have reduced to 7mg. I'd been paying $60 for 60x 5mg capsules, so the bottle lasted me 20 days. This method of ingesting doubles my money! I've had no deficiency symptoms, the signs of adrenal stress on my face are disappearing, and when I self-test, I get Yes!

 

[garyfritz]

I thought folate was supposed to be absorbed just fine in the digestive tract??

 

[aturtles]

My naturopath is also very interested in what I'm learning. She says I'm "a real research gooroo."

We should start a list of NDs who are open-minded enough to listen to us and learn to help us better, eh?

What I'm learning is that we have to present the B12 to our bodies, but we can't use it in that form. It has to be picked up by the Transcobalamin II "transport vessels" to deliver it to the liver & brain. There's a limited number of TCII's so we want to load up as many of them as we can -- and that means keeping the B12 level high as much of the time as possible. IM and sublingual spike it for a short time, but SC keeps it high for a longer time, thus more TCII picks it up.

How long does the SC injection last you?

I'm testing a different delivery method that I'll report on soon that's supposed to work even better -- we'll see!

I know a little about that. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Thank you!

 

[aturtles]

I've just followed a tip from @stridor and begun taking my folate by emptying out capsule or putting tablet into my gum. I'm now literally using/needing less than half than what I'd been on. I'd been taking 15mg for about 5 months, this week have reduced to 7mg. I'd been paying $60 for 60x 5mg capsules, so the bottle lasted me 20 days. This method of ingesting doubles my money! I've had no deficiency symptoms, the signs of adrenal stress on my face are disappearing, and when I self-test, I get Yes!

@ahmo, thanks for the report! I've been wondering about this, too. I tried it a few times, but didn't notice any difference. I wonder if gut absorption varies from person to person where L-MTHF is concerned. Maybe I should try it again. Though I think my problem now is not enough MeCbl at steady state, so maybe one thing at a time. (I keep telling myself that.)

 

[ahmo]

I thought folate was supposed to be absorbed just fine in the digestive tract??

That's what i always understood. I'm totally amazed. And also amazed that this, like removing vegetable folate in the past, has further erased the signs of adrenal stress. I found this link 5 months ago, when I was in severe adrenal stress. I've never gone on to research the underlying mechanism. But for me, at least, excess folate is pushing my adrenals too hard.

 

[garyfritz]

How long does the SC injection last you?

I didn't keep up with the injections very long. It didn't work very well. If I cut down on my CL, I went into pretty nasty symptoms pretty quickly. Changing to SC didn't help. I don't know if my vial of B12 was light-damaged or what, but I figured if I still have to take the CL, why am I poking myself with needles? (Needles that got dulled by the rubber top on the vial and *hurt* going in!)

 

[stridor]

@garyfritz
You are absolutely right. Folate is supposed to absorb just fine. I don't absorb B2 right either and did a thrread called "A B2 Story" about that experience. I also have to work at keeping iron up and Vit D. I suspect that there are other things that I don't even know about. I started a lot of supports for mercury detox and can't seem to reduce much.
As many know I had my colon removed and my gut problems are worse than some.

Still, I suspect that a percentage of people using many mg of folate will be in the same boat.

 

[garyfritz]

Thanks for the insight, @stridor. I'm still a newbie at this and I haven't learned what folate does for me, what a folate deficiency or overdose feels like. I wouldn't know if I wasn't absorbing enough. I have a very clear (TOO clear) understanding of the result of B12 shortfall, but I don't know how to tell if I have too much or too little folate, iron, D2, etc. Many of these supplements I'm taking on faith because I'm "supposed to" need them.

 

[stridor]

@garyfritz Not surprised about to hear that you gravitate towards B12 with your 1298, FUT and TCN2. For me, folate was kind of tricky to regulate until I got enough B12 as well. The symptoms of too little and too much were annoyingly similar. An increase in brain fog was my first sign that I was leaving my therapeutic window in either direction.

After I got the B12 were I needed it, I never had over-methylation symptoms again. Right now I am steady at 2 x 1 mg injections a day + 15 mg s.l. and adnB12 8.6 mg daily. I haven't tried isolating the adnB12 to a given day as per Freddds last suggestion. Are people doing this? Anyone noted any change? brad

 

[garyfritz]

@stridor I don't even know what FUT and TCN2 do, so I'll take your word for it.

I tried doing as much as 2-3mg injections, but only once per day. It didn't work at all well for me. Knowing what I've since learned -- the B12 stays in serum a fairly short time, even with SC injection -- I suspect 2x/day like you're doing would have worked better.

Assuming you take the adnB12 sublingually, you're getting about a 2:1 ratio of methyl:adeno in your sublinguals, plus the 2mg/day injected mB12. So given effectiveness of absorption vs injection, you're probably getting something like 3:1 or better. I'm currently at about 5:1, both delivered sublingually, or rather against my gums. I'm also experimenting with a transdermal application, which seems to be helping, but not like it's supposed to. Still figuring that out.

What's the "isolating adnB12 to a given day" you mentioned?

 

[ahmo]

What's the "isolating adnB12 to a given day" you mentioned?

Fred Posted this in June or July this year.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...al-5-mthf-versus-egg-yolks.31498/#post-483883

One thing I would do in your position is check out some timing issues. After 10+ years of trying all sports of scheduling and doses of MeCbl and AdoCbl, I find I get the best results if I take MeCbl and AdoCbl separately. Currently I take AdoCbl once a week at 30-50mg sublingual to get CNS penetration. I take it over a 4-5 hour period using 1/2 a cap of Anabol Naturals at a time along the lower lip and gum. This gets it penetrating the nervous system. On that I maintain equilibrium and there is no noticeable startup effect from being “low” each week. I find that the MeCbl and AdoCbl each work better when just the one thing is the majority present in blood. I skip one dose of MeCbl that day. See the MeCbl/AdoCbl ratios post from a week ago or so.

 

[aturtles]

Fred Posted this in June or July this year.

@ahmo, also this from Freddd, July 15 2014:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...12-types-and-brands-ratios.31434/#post-482664

"I'm taking 50mg a week generally, but as a single long dose. I find I need to get to that higher level to get the diffusion into the CNS. 10mg a day for me, doesn't penetrate the CNS adequately. My daughter needed a dose a day AdoCbl, with a higher dose being more effective. So this one is very individual in how it is dosed. I also find a daily dosing more effective if it is the entire dose one time a day rather than mixed at the same time with MeCbl. I find that works better alone also. Each way of taking it can produce different effects. The question is "Which is better for me over time?" Changing the balance of AdoCbl/MeCbl affects mood, personality and energy."

This is my approach right now.

 

[jaykle]

Hello,
This is my 1st post so I'm not sure if this is the right place to start this discussion... I apologize in advance...

I'm MTHFR C677T +/+ and settled about a year ago on a "light" version of the active B12 protocol. Basically, I'm taking on a daily basis MethylCbl (1000mcg, sublin.) + AdCbl (~2000mcg) and L-Methyl (800 mcg.).

Recently I've done another blood test and found out that some CBC parameters have gone worse (comparing to the previous test I've done about 10 months ago) and now probably indicating Anemia (doctor sent me to more tests...)

For example, RBC and Hemoglobin which were borderline normal low, have now crossed the red line and are low (RBC 4.4 to 4, Hgb 13.7 to 12.9). MCV is going up (95) and Platelets count have dropped to borderline minimum and MPV crossed borderline high 13.3.

Bottom line - Can this "Anemia" be an outcome of the protocol? I know that in some cases people have suffered from a paradoxical folate deficiency when applying the protocol but I must say that 99% of the time I feel great and only in the begining of applying the protocol more than a year ago I had to do some adjustments (e.g., potassium) so besides the "Anemia" I didn't/don't experience any apparent symptoms which may indicate paradoxical folate deficiency...

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[garyfritz]

adoB12 once a week, interesting. My understanding is that for mB12 you want high serum levels basically all the time, so the TCII transports can always be loaded up to deliver the B12 where you need it. Seems very odd that adoB12 would work so differently and work best once a week.

 

[liverock]

Hello,
This is my 1st post so I'm not sure if this is the right place to start this discussion... I apologize in advance...

I'm MTHFR C677T +/+ and settled about a year ago on a "light" version of the active B12 protocol. Basically, I'm taking on a daily basis MethylCbl (1000mcg, sublin.) + AdCbl (~2000mcg) and L-Methyl (800 mcg.).

Recently I've done another blood test and found out that some CBC parameters have gone worse (comparing to the previous test I've done about 10 months ago) and now probably indicating Anemia (doctor sent me to more tests...)

For example, RBC and Hemoglobin which were borderline normal low, have now crossed the red line and are low (RBC 4.4 to 4, Hgb 13.7 to 12.9). MCV is going up (95) and Platelets count have dropped to borderline minimum and MPV crossed borderline high 13.3.

Bottom line - Can this "Anemia" be an outcome of the protocol? I know that in some cases people have suffered from a paradoxical folate deficiency when applying the protocol but I must say that 99% of the time I feel great and only in the begining of applying the protocol more than a year ago I had to do some adjustments (e.g., potassium) so besides the "Anemia" I didn't/don't experience any apparent symptoms which may indicate paradoxical folate deficiency...

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Welcome to the PR forum jaykle,

Sounds like Mb12 deficiency causing a 'folate trap'. A 1:1 ratio of MB12 and folate is not suitable if you have mutations joining the Folate/methione parts of the cycle.

With these mutations MB12 is not being recycled adequately and the folate trap is sprung. Depending on whether the mutations are homozygous or heterozygous determines the amount of increased MB12 required to get round these mutations.

If its correct that you are taking 2x as much AdBcl as MB12 that could be a problem as well. The normal ratio is between 3 to5 x more MB12 than AdCbl. Some people taking higher doses of ADCbl compared to MB12 have reported symptoms similar to methyl trapping.

Try lowering AdCbll and increasing MB12.

 

[garyfritz]

@liverock, what mutations cause this issue? And does it have a name? Given that I have mutations all around the cycle, I suspect I probably qualify for the party.

I've been taking about 5x more mB12 than adB12 with sublinguals, but recently I've been using a product with a 3:1 ad:methyl ratio. If I have this problem, I need to re-think that product.