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Alternatives to Arginine to raise Nitric Oxide

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
@nandixon - Great insight... I'm really confounded by methylfolate because I feel NOTHING when taking it, so maybe the combo of methylfolate and arginine is best... Don't you have to take M-B12 w methylfolate? isn't that a "cardinal rule"? if so, what is the ratio of methylfolate to m-b12?

What about taking Lysine w the arginine-methylfolate combo.. Lysine may offset any EBV problems caused by arginine... if so, what should the ratio be between lysine-argininet?

thanks
Yes, sure, you'd want to take at least some minimal amount of B12 just to avoid masking any potential pernicious anemia issue. I don't have any idea how much would be good for you. Personally, I'd keep it low to start with (100-500mcg?) so the focus is on the nitric oxide experiment. You probably wouldn't want to take the B12 in the form of hydroxocobalamin (hydroxycobalamin) since apparently that can quench NO if I remember correctly.

I have no idea about the lysine. You may not have a problem with arginine on a second try if you're also taking methylfolate at the same time, so lysine may not be necessary.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
20 Ways to Boost Nitric Oxide Naturally

http://anabolicmen.com/boost-nitric-oxide-naturally

I found a few nitric oxide boosters on Amazon that weren't geared towards the sports fitness market:

Nitroxyl:
www.amazon.com/dp/B00DXOIKM0

Neo40:
www.amazon.com/dp/B007A4LZBC

Neo40 Professional:
www.amazon.com/dp/B00IO5WZ7E

After shaking my head at the high prices of all of the above, I looked for a less expensive alternative and decided to buy this:
Beet Root Circulation Support Complex
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-beet-root-circulation-support-complex-60-veg-caps

Swanson Vitamins also has another similar product that contains arginine:
Fast-Acting Beet Root NO+
https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-fast-acting-beet-root-no-60-chwbls
 
Messages
4
Location
canada
Arginine has helped me. My BP has been lowered to 130/80 from 170/90. I sleep better too, much better but that might be because of some weight loss that I experienced with the use of the arginine. I'm using a well known no hassle formulated compound created by an MD. Message me if there's any interest in the source.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Arginine has helped me. My BP has been lowered to 130/80 from 170/90. I sleep better too, much better but that might be because of some weight loss that I experienced with the use of the arginine. I'm using a well known no hassle formulated compound created by an MD. Message me if there's any interest in the source.

Hello @therooster. It's OK with us if you want to post your link to the product here. We post links to products all the time. You'll be helping many patients if you do! Thanks.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Some one on this forum recommended a Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (GPLC) supplement to increase NO and I can attest that it worked. It's not too cost-effective. Nitroglycerin sounds awesome
I'm curious whether GPLC would lower blood pressure if it's already low-to-average. What was your experience?
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Bodybuilders are always looking for ways to increase NO. They used to use arginine, but mostly now use Betaine HCL, or even tadalafil (Cialis).
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
OK, now I'm utterly confused. @ahmo just directed me (in another thread) to Martin Pall's work, and here I see that he thinks ME/CFS becomes chronic because of an upregulation in NO:
http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/cfsweb.htm

He says that elements of the NO/ONOO cycle are elevated in patients with ME/CFS.

I've been looking for ways to boost NO production because of my three homozygous NOS2 snps (which @nandixon looked up for me, and she thinks they are down-regulations).

How do I find out whether NO is high or low? Are there tests? Is it possible that iNOS could be low while eNOS and nNOS are high?
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@picante :rofl::rofl:I'm not the only confused one!!!:confused: I'm really struggling to understand this. Maybe the whole issue is about balance (duh)...I've joined the yahoo forum, but haven't gotten it together yet to post a question. But this is certainly one of the questions, and what is/is there a relationship between ammonia and peroxynitrite?
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
@ahmo

Doesn't Ammonnia convert to NO which converts to peroxynitrite?

High ammonia levels caused by either poor methylation (forget the SNP's involved), or even liver issues.

I know people with cirrhosis have high ammonia levels.


Have you guys ever gotten your livers checked out? CBC can be fine but you can still have liver issues.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@drob31 you've made it so simple! My body experience concurs with this, I just haven't found, in some hours of searching on pr and elsewhere, this relationship. I've even got a page about nitrogen metabolism in my many tabs waiting for me to review. But this makes sense...ammonia is NH3 (or4?) I think,...well, I'm trash at chemistry... I just know that when I started implementing Martin Pall's suggestions for reducing peroxynitrite I started feeling better. And the symptoms were those that I'd been labelling ammonia prior to this, and reducing by using initially arginine, ornithine, citrulline, lysine, but now reducing that to just malic acid.

http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/nitrogen-metabolism.php#regulation
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
@ahmo

Interesting, so it could by high levels of peroxynitrate causing your issues. Are you using malic acid as a peroxynitrate scavenger?

Maybe that's why your liver flushes help. They temporarily reduce the build up of ammonia.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@drob31 Yes, lot's of malic in footbaths. I've been on low thiol diet for 2.5 years. In fact my sulfur issues were different from what I've been experiencing these days. Removing sulfur foods relieved eczema as well as some connective tissue issues. During my past year of coffee enemas I've learned to distinguish symptoms I'd labelled as ammonia, but I now see might be peroxy...a particular type of headachey feeling, squinty eyes, sometimes slight sense of breathlessness, restlessness. There's also a particular taste in my mouth, not identifiable , but consistent when these levels are high. However, unlike some comments I've read, I've never smelled ammonia on my skin or breath, or urine. I learned to use the CBS supps to remedy that, then switched to malic about 6 months ago. More recently I felt I was drowning in ammonia after taking B2 in much higher doses than I had been. it took about a week to recover. And immediately following that I had my in-the-world and to-the-brink experience. I kept using coffee enemas all along.

The other things I've added from Pall's recommendations, actually, quite a few: Before I watched the Pall vid I'd begun eating lot's of carrots. In fact, it's my only veg. When body had asked for higher amounts in the past, my only assoication was that there was something about oxalates that was binding to something else and flushing from my system. Given what I leaned from pall, no, carrots are a very good anti-ox, and the carotenoids in particular do some good work. Per Pall, I've added watermelon (arginine? citrulline). This is delightful because it's my first fruit in 3 years and my body is fine with it. Again, I self-test for what I consider a lot of it.

Also...for some months my body was not interested in pycnogenol, until I came into this oxidative stress period. But I've replaced pycnogenol w/ Pall's recommendation, reseveratrol, which body seems to love. I switched my E succinate, taken as one of Yasko's recommendations, to Gamma E. Pall says the other E's can even make things worse, instead of acting as antioxidants. I've added Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCAR) and using AdB12 differently than I do w/ Freddd's Protocol, taking 1 as needed during the day to help relieve these symptoms.

I've just embarked on a 30-60 day long parasite/candida/bacterial cleanse, a mega-undertaking for me. So I suspect I'll continue to have high needs during this period, w/ possibly daily coffee enemas. One of the reasons I'm doing this is in searching for the source of my ammonia issues I came to understand that candida itself can be producing it. So I'm hoping for a whole new system in the next couple months. And if this doesn't allow me to eat some of the foods I've eliminated, I'll try the 3 day fast to reset immune system as reported by Critterina....whew, long answer...:whistle:
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
squinty eyes, sometimes slight sense of breathlessness, restlessness
Ammonia / peroxynitrite twins :hug: ( :grumpy: :grumpy: )

Looking at the Glucose-Alanine Cycle at http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/nitrogen-metabolism.php#intro

glucose-alanine-cycle.jpg


My ALT is very low, I wonder what that means???? :nervous:
13 U/L (14 - 36)
6 months ago it was 28, but now I am feeling way better :confused:
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
@ahmo
Have you ever had a candida serum blood test? I tested for IgG, IgA, and IgE candida antibodies, and I was high for IgA. KDM only tests CFS patients for IgG and IgE. IgA is associated with external candida, like on the skin or under the nails. I did take difflucan for 4 weeks, but it made me feel really bad. I think it actually raised my cortisol.
 

nandixon

Senior Member
Messages
1,092
OK, now I'm utterly confused. @ahmo just directed me (in another thread) to Martin Pall's work, and here I see that he thinks ME/CFS becomes chronic because of an upregulation in NO:
http://www.thetenthparadigm.org/cfsweb.htm

He says that elements of the NO/ONOO cycle are elevated in patients with ME/CFS.

I've been looking for ways to boost NO production because of my three homozygous NOS2 snps (which @nandixon looked up for me, and she thinks they are down-regulations).

How do I find out whether NO is high or low? Are there tests? Is it possible that iNOS could be low while eNOS and nNOS are high?
I can't go into more detail because I'm working in another direction (an excess serotonin theory I have for my own ME/CFS) and only have so much energy, but I think it's thought that the most common pattern in ME/CFS, assuming there is one, is that NO production from iNOS (NOS2) is likely to be increased more than it should be, while NO from eNOS (NOS3) may be lower than desirable. (The researcher Maes, I think, has looked at iNOS in ME/CFS.)

Also, I think that most researchers think that Pall's theory is more likely to only be a contributing problem in ME/CFS and not the fundamental issue.

Having said that, if it's true that your iNOS would naturally tend to be downregulated, overall, because of those NOS2 SNPs (assuming they actually have that effect), then you may have an advantage over many people with ME/CFS because you might have a sort of "buffer" where you can attempt to increase your NO from eNOS without worsening things as much with respect to iNOS, compared to someone else.

This is all theoretical/speculation, though. Really, it's hard tell ahead of time how a supplement might work out for you.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@drob31 I haven't tested for candida, unless it was included in some of my very early tests. And I don't have any typical signs/symptoms. But when i was entering into the guthriveinfive program (out of which I bailed), according to Jack Tiggs questionnaire, which he's been perfecting for a few years, I fit into the fungus category. The one thing I do have is bloating. I'm at a loss to find any other source for my high peroxy state. I'm using a range of natural substances I've compiled from several sources. I'm preparing a post where I list them.

ETA: In fact, I have some evidence of candida. A couple months ago I had been tracking a small patch of persistent eczema on face. I encountered an article suggesting candida. I stopped eating honey and cooking the carrots, my only 2 sources. I promptly went into a detox response, and the eczema cleared, has not returned.
 
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