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Never Ask Us if We're Hungry -- The Answer's Always No
There are three of us here and for many years, none of us ever got hungry. When our brains would turn to mush, when our faces would go numb, and we would start the invisible vibration which is the signature dance of ME/CFS, we knew we needed to eat.
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Anxiety, Ammonia, and the NMDA Receptor

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Hip, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. Tashimoto

    Tashimoto

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    l-ornithine remedy for ammonia detox

    Hi all,
    As a newcomer, I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere in this forum, but according to Dr. Hulda Clark and to an MD from the Univ. of Chicago, nicknamed 'Dr. Bob' on the site I visited, the amino acid l-ornithine "mops up ammonia" in the body. Just Google: 'ornithine ammonia sleep' and you'll find a good amount of material on the subject. In this regard, visit the NOW Foods website, type 'ornithine' in their site search window and check out the number of user testimonials about how positively ornithine has influenced peoples' sleeping patterns. Dr. Clark claims ammonia build up in the brain is a major cause of insomnia. After all, she points out, what do they use to 'wake people up' in an emergency? Why, 'smelling salts' of course, made with ammonia. I am not affiliated with Now Foods in any way, it's just that their site contains a large number of testimonials about the difference ornithine has made for getting a better night's sleep.
  2. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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  3. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    tashimoto..what's the website you referenced.?
  4. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Ornithine and Arginine both stimulate growth hormone, so I suspect that is why the direction usually have you take it at night. Arginine may be counter-productive for ammonia removal though.
  5. Tashimoto

    Tashimoto

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  6. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Just wanted to report that, I started taking Yucca (500mg) about an hour after each meal, and it has made a remarkable difference. I have much less anxiety and muscle tension in my upper back and neck has diminished considerably.

    Most of the anxiety I experienced occurred in the early morning hours, during REM state, leading to consciously uncontrollable dream states of stress which would exhaust me so much that by the time I woke up I was anything but rested making me feel fatigued for most of the day. Often i would wake up feeling like i had been hit by a semi-truck. One thing that your body does in the early morning hours is detoxify, so thus taking yucca before bedtime I find is crucial.

    The anxiety, ammonia, NMDA receptor hypothesis definitely holds true for me and is undoubtedly one of the biggest causal factors in my CFS. I'm glad its seemingly relatively easy to treat.

    If anyone has more ammonia or early morning detox tips, please let me know. I'm all ears.

    Also Apple Pectin for me seems to really boost mental clarity and helps eliminate brain fog. The fact it detoxifies Aluminum has a wonderful effects in helping eliminate ammonia. DHPR enzyme responsible for the creation of BH4 from BH2, BH4 also binds to ammonia to help eliminate it from the body. DHPR is inhibited by aluminum.
    dannybex, Jarod and Rolo like this.
  7. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I am really interested in hearing more about how this "partial block at aconitase" works. What exactly causes the block? and what can be done to fix it?
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Gestalt.

    The partial block of aconitase is caused by the depletion of reduced glutathione. The way to restore glutathione in ME/CFS is to treat the partial methylation cycle block. That's what the simplified methylation protocol does. We have measured evidence that this works, from the clinical study that Dr. Nathan and I carried out.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I take prescription drugs at night and during the day. I'm also concerned about taking activated charcoal (and other binders) which might snatch up my prescription medication, supplements, and nutrients for food. Aside from having ammonia problems from eating a high protein diet I also need charcoal for combating Lyme and mercury so I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Since I take some of my meds with my last meal I'll just take the charcoal 2-3 hours later since I can't sleep on an empty stomach. Otherwise you can follow Rich's advice:

  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Is there a reason why you take Yucca an hour after meals? Is that best or can it be taken with meals and/or 2-3 hours after meals?

    Does Modified Citrus Pectin work the same way as Apple Pectin?

    That's interesting what you say about early morning detoxification. In Ayurveda they recommend going to bed around 10 PM and getting up around 6 AM because this is the period when the body detoxifies. They break down each 24 hour cycle into 4 hour chunks. 10 AM - 2 PM and 10 PM - 2 AM are associated with the Pitta Dosha which is when the body's digestion is strongest so it's recommend to eat your largest meal between 10 AM - 2 PM. For the 10 PM - 2 AM period "digestion" has a broader meaning. This is the time when the body physically repairs itself (ie detoxifying) so it's important not to eat right before you go to bed so your body isn't expending energy digesting food. The Vata Dosha is strongest during 2 - 6 AM/PM and during the early morning is when the body repairs itself mentally. This is why many people have dreams during this period. When the Vata Dosha is out of balance one of the symptoms is anxiety which would explain why some people have nightmares/anxious dreams during that time.
  11. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I actually don't take yucca with meals anymore. I only take one capsule at nighttime right before bedtime. It seriously is a miracle drug for me. I used to have severe back pain upon waking from all the ammonia activation along my spine during the night and that has completely gone away.

    I don't know about the modified vs regular pectin.

    In regards to the Ayurveda timing, I think generalizations about people's body clocks is questionable at best. I believe everyone has a different body clock/rhythm and it's important you listen to your own body rather than superimposing an arbitrary system on top of it. What I have personally noticed is that those who are strong parasympathetic (yin/Kapha) dominant have large appetites in the morning, and those who are more (yang/Vata) sympathetic dominant have larger appetites in the evening.

    In order for me to get a good night's rest without waking up in the middle of the night hungry, I have to eat larger meals in the evening, and I eat almost nothing in the morning.

    The digestive process is inherently parasympathetic as is the sleep process, and your body does a lot of rebuilding while you sleep. It makes logical sense that those with a faster metabolism especially at nighttime would require extra nutrients for the rebuilding/rejuvenation process. Bodybuilders often consume slow digesting proteins right before bed to keep their body nourished while they sleep. A steady supply of amino acids at night helping rebuild muscle tissue also assists in the detoxification process. I go for a high protein meal before bed, in conjunction with higher fiber to help soak up toxins during sleep. The combo works really well for me being a strong sympathetic dominant.
    dannybex and Lotus97 like this.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I pretty much agree with you on the validity of Ayurveda, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways because it is kind of fun and interesting even if it might not be true. Once you have a theory (scientific or otherwise) it skews shapes the way you interpret the data. Still, I'm a Vata (primary dosha)/Pitta (secondary dosha) and I have no appetite in the morning and have to eat enough in the evening or I'm unable to sleep. That's interesting what you said about Vata being sympathetic dominant since I'm sympathetic dominant, but I never made the connection between that and my Vata nature.

    I do eat a relatively high fiber/high protein diet, but it varies from meal to meal so maybe I should take some psyllium and/or other binders and fiber before I go to bed as well. I know with certain binders it's cautioned not to consume them around the time you eat or take supplements/prescription medication, but what about fiber from beans, grains, or psyllium/chia/flax seeds? Does anyone know if those need to be limited at the times you take supplements and/or prescription medication?
  13. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Ok I agree with most of what I read above but it is a big mistake that no one mentioned DHEA. I have constant anxiety if I do not take my DHEA. It was constant anxiety and high blood pressure (BOTH) which drove me to take DHEA. The DHEA:cortisol ratio governs how much stress you can take and if you do not make enough DHEA to handle the level of cortisol that you normally carry, then you will have anxiety/panic. DHEA cleared this up for me in 15 minutes. Like going through a fun house mirror and coming out the other side free of anxiety.

    I also have the CBS homozygous genetic defects (two of them) and I do not need yucca or charcoal. I did not want to take either because I do not believe either is healthy for you so I ate 80g of protein then took a serum ammonia test and my ammonia was within range so I do not worry about charcoal and yucca. However I can tell you that prior to taking DHEA I had very serious glutamate toxicity (it almost killed me once) during PMS (low hormone time) and forever after my hysterectomy. I do know that testosterone, which is one of the hormones made from DHEA, improves the CBS mutations, lowering homocysteine (and Yasko got it dead wrong because the two homozygous CBS mutations I have which she said would cause lowered homocysteine, cause higher homocysteine not only in myself which I have proven but in others...in fact in every study I have read!)

    Ammonia does cause glutamate toxicity because the NMDA receptors are gated by a magnesium ion and ammonia strips that ion off, leaving it open and ungated, because magnesium is needed to excrete ammonia via the ornithine cycle. Eating too much protein can also cause this problem in a healthy person...but idk how much is too much for them. I do eat a low protein diet naturally...my albumin is only 3.9 and now that my father is on kidney dialysis I learn that one's albumin should be 4.0 or better for health (twice the rate of death of dialysis patients whose albumin is in range 3.5-4.0). I probably could eat a little more protein. I have never thought a high protein diet was healthy because it is very acidic and I believe it is healthier to maintain a neutral ph. In fact animal protein consumption is strongly linked to cancers of all kinds.

    I do not know how this works in males. It may require testosterone replacement to have the same effect in males as far as the CBS genes. Although the literature I read about DHEA affecting anxiety never said anything about the result differing between men and women.
    helen1 likes this.
  14. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Oh, the time I thought I might die from glutamate toxicity, it was far worse than anxiety. I could not stop shaking and I COULD NOT RELAX a single muscle in my body! It took over 24 hours to leave my system. Shudder!
  15. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I don't think Vitamin E does any good for anxiety because I have taken 1g/day for over 30 years and still had unrelenting anxiety every PMS and at menopause (which is PMS forever) and still almost died from glutamate toxicity. Ashwaghanda did nothing for me either, nor did Holy Basil (although Holy Basil may have helped me lose weight so it's still a good'un).

    I never tried curcumin, but I want to caution y'all since a lot of people here are on big time medications, curcumin is excreted though the CYP3A4 route which is the most common route through which prescription drugs are excreted and it can and does interfere with drug excretion. Any drug relying on CYP3A4 for elimination can build up to potentially toxic levels if you are taking curcumin (and this COMMONLY happens to Indians who eat curries regularly on Western Medicine). It can be fatal. It's a really great herb if you are drug free, otherwise better research your drugs and talk to your docs.
  16. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Someone above stated there was a doc treating lyme with an ammonia-removing strategy. I don't know anything about that but one time I found a study reporting that in India they were treating many illnesses of parasitic origin with B12 and that what would happen is the parasite would eat up the body's B12. I think come of the things they listed included chagas, lyme, and even some kinds of worm (tapeworm?).
  17. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    Ammonia levels in the brain can be easily reduced by the use of Lactulose Syrup. I have taken care of patients that had high ammonia levels in their blood which caused serious mental deterioration. When ammonia exceeds a certain level in the blood, it will begin to cause brain symptoms that will show up first as anxiety/overstimulation. If not lowered, it will cause mental confusion and can even cause brain damage and death.

    There is a medication used for seizures(and other things)called valproic acid or Depakote. It causes high ammonia levels in some people. This is what caused the problem in the folks I was caring for. I can't help but think that lower levels of ammonia may be involved in ME. I have not tried Lactulose Syrup myself, but I think I will as I have sensory overload and anxiety that both fluctuate. If Lactulose could reduce these, that would be some welcome relief.

    Warning: Lactulose has a laxative effect! A person would have to experiment with it to see how much could be tolerated, yet still effective for anxiety/mental overstimulation. It is made of sugars that are not absorbed and draw water into the bowels. It is also a prebiotic. It is a prescription medication.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactulose
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Is there any consensus on using aspartic acid/zinc or magnesium aspartate? Some people say it's bad, but I read this recently about how it relates to ammonia (disclaimer: the information is from a supplement manufacturer)
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Aspartic acid is a normal component of foods, but I'm am not certain I would supplement it. I would probably prefer other forms of magnesium and zinc, such as glycinate which has very good absorbability. Perhaps if you are low in aspartic acid on an UAA you could consider supplementing. There doesn't seem to be any consensus whether it is neurotoxic or not. Taken with magnesium and zinc which both are NMDA blockers it might be safe. If you do not experience any symptoms, such as headache, anxiety, insomnia, irritability etc you will probably be fine.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  20. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I bought some Aspartic Acid....however have yet to try it. I got concerned that the supposed "energy boost" people feel when taking it is due to the action of aspartate overexciting the nervous system, which is the opposite of what you would want if you are trying to eliminate anxiety.

    Aspartate (like from Aspartame) is often lumped in with glutamates (like from MSG) as an excitotoxin. I can't make heads or tails out of some of the research as claims go both ways.

    According to wikipedia:

    Also it looks like aspartate is used in the urea cycle to help rid the body of ammonia. So this may actually be beneficial here. Look at STEP 3 in the reaction process here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea_cycle#Reactions

    Looks like maybe supplementing with aspartate though could boost glutamate levels by binding with akg.
    [​IMG]
    (http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/amino-acid-metabolism.php#glutamate)

    However if instead supplementing with akg would bind to ammonia, but then create glutamate....what's worse as an excitotoxin and NMDA agravater? Glutamate or ammonia? Are you fixing one problem by creating another?

    [​IMG]

    Could akg and/or aspartic acid be beneficial for anxiety & Ammonia issues? I remain confused.
    Luca, Jarod and Lotus97 like this.

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