Are essential fatty acids 'toxic'?

[dannybex]

Just wanted to post a couple of examples of 2-3 people who have anecdotally benefitted from some of his ideas -- although it seems like they used the less extreme approach used by Matt Stone (of 180degreehealth):


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=122335;p=0


And the second, from a guy w/lyme/mold/mercury, etc.:


https://www.facebook.com/180degreehealth/posts/305588546225005

 

[alex3619]

This image is not too bad if you can cope with garish colours:

It can be hard to see though, so I am looking for a visually easier one.

 

[alex3619]

This one might be visually clearer:

 

[dannybex]

Those colors are fine w/my eyes, maybe because I've lost some of my color vision!

But I'm hoping you can post the description of how and where salicylates interfere w/d-5 and d-6. Sorry to be such a pest…!

 

[alex3619]

This one suggests something I already knew, but have not followed up on. Other desaturases are at work, which means they may also be salicylate sensitive, such as d4-desaturase. Also, these enzymes can work on other fats, not just the omega-6 and omega-3 paths.

 

[alex3619]

I do not have the original paper to hand. Salicylates were experimentally shown to impact both d5-desaturase, and d6-desaturase using lab tests. I do not recall the specific tests.

Cofactors of the desaturases I am looking into. My library is in a shambles, all 6000+ books disordered. Doh.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I probably felt the negative effects of salicylates on hormones, but I ask @alex3619 if it wouldn't be wiser to help the liver to deal with the sals before they cause harm.

After all sals are in every vegetable and also have antioxidant properties.

Hi sal foods should not be avoided, they are supposed to be healthy and salicylate sensitivity is reversible in my experience.

In my point of view someone becomes salicylate intolerant after following some detox protocols (e.g. methylation) which deplete important liver cofactors (as magnesium).

I am hoping someone wiser than me can validate my experience

P.S.
OK now I get it... EFAs are toxic to Ray Peat b/c he systematically overdoses with salicylates

 

[alex3619]

Desaturase cofactors appear to be zinc, magnesium, b3, b6, and vitamin C. I have seen this list a few times, but have yet to track down any good science supporting it, so I cannot be sure its right.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Desaturase cofactors appear to be zinc, magnesium, b3, b6, and vitamin C. I have seen this list a few times, but have yet to track down any good science supporting it, so I cannot be sure its right.

B3 in niacin form, not nicotinamide?

 

[alex3619]

There are four layers to our defence against salicylates that I can see. The first is good gut bacteria. They detox a lot. The second is good liver function. The third is removing inhibiting factors on desaturase activity, which includes alcohol. The fourth is supplying cofactors and glutathione.

Glutathione is not a cofactor, its a regulatory factor. When its low then desaturase activity is low.

Assisting liver detox is probably a good idea. I am unaware that this is reliable though. If the problem starts in the gut, for example, then the liver might be quickly overwhelmed. If the problem is glutathione synthesis, whether from methylation cycle issues or not, then both the liver and the rest of the body will feel the impact.

This is a huge spaghetti pile of interlocking factors.

One thing I disagree with is total avoidance of salicylates, at least in the long term. This can cause major issues if you accidentally come into contact with a lot of salicylates.

 

[alex3619]

B3 in niacin form, not nicotinamide?

I don't know. I have yet to track down any good science on this.

 

[alex3619]

One thing I have speculated about, and let me emphasize again this is just speculation, if we over-utililze arachidonic acid due to ME or other issues that increase cyclooxygenase activity, there might be feedback loops that shut down the desaturases. If these loops exist then it suddenly becomes a much bigger issue. Indeed, glutathione might constitute a factor in such a loop.

 

[dannybex]

Desaturase cofactors appear to be zinc, magnesium, b3, b6, and vitamin C. I have seen this list a few times, but have yet to track down any good science supporting it, so I cannot be sure its right.

That's what it says on my NutrEval test, but also they add b2 and insulin. And in between the desaturase enzymes are 'elongase' enzymes, which they say require b3, pantothenic acid (b5), b6, biotin, and vitamin C.

 

[alex3619]

That's what it says on my NutrEval test, but also they add b2 and insulin. And in between the desaturase enzymes are 'elongase' enzymes, which they say require b3, pantothenic acid (b5), b6, biotin, and vitamin C.

Elongase is rarely a problem from what I have read, but its good to know. Barry Sears wrote about the glucogon/insulin connection with this, but I forget the details.

 

[alex3619]

Something I just commented on in another thread involves arachidonic acid over-synthesis. I think we over-utillize this, which can deplete short chain omega-6s and so may distort the PGE1 pathway, and lead to periodic deficiency in arachidonic acid derived prostaglandins. This might resemble salicylate intolerance, but would have the unique feature that it often waxes and wanes.

 

[dannybex]

Well I want to thank you @alex3619 for pointing out that arachidonic acid (and in general O-6's) are just as important as omega-3's. I've been having a terrible time with what to me is 'fat intolerance', but my description is probably different from others.

I can't seem to tolerate increasing levels of almost any fat except for omega-3's. Whenever I do, I get that awful restless leg type situation, but at the same time the RLS has happened w/o 'increasing' fats as well. Sometimes I'll also be awakened with strong, severe leg or foot cramps as well.

Anyway, because of this RLS, I've felt like I had to avoid adding any fats for years now -- which I know isn't good -- but that's been the overall situation. So -- I avoided evening primrose oil -- which I was taking off and on prior to 2010, but have been off of it for years now with a few exceptions, while at the same time taking omega-3 fish oil, prescribed by my medicaid doc for my high-ish blood pressure (fluctuates wildly). This no doubt has created an omega six deficiency…and might possibly help explain my continual muscle loss (in addition to the methylation/krebs explanation that Rich told me about back in late 2010).

So am trying EPO again. I took a whole capsule with lunch, and opened one, put it on my meal -- two hours later -- RLS! But I won't give up, will try maybe putting some on my arms, hands, maybe feet…will see if that works better.

Thanks Alex.

 

[dannybex]

p.s. From my nutraEval panel four years ago:

The Omega 3 Family: My Linoleic was low. Linolenic (GLA) was normal -- I was taking EPO. DGLA was normal-ish. Arachidonic was almost in the high range (and it's labeled as 'pro-inflammatory on the test result, but it's my understanding that AA is both pro and anti-inflammatory? DTA was normal.

The Omega 3 Family: a-Linolenic was normal. EPA was almost as high as could be noted, and I don't remember taking any fish oils at the time. DPA was normal, but DHA was sky-high like EPA.

p.s. Just checked my 2009-2011 'diary', and found I was putting freshly ground flax on my oatmeal, so that may explain why the EPA/DHA was high.

???

 

[Gondwanaland]

@dannybex how about your iron levels?

 

[alex3619]

So am trying EPO again. I took a whole capsule with lunch, and opened one, put it on my meal -- two hours later -- RLS! But I won't give up, will try maybe putting some on my arms, hands, maybe feet…will see if that works better.

Evening primrose oil was once touted as a solution to salicylate intolerance.The response is unstable though - its a dynamic. It does help, but only to a point. It can also cause problems. So its a good thing that needs to be treated with caution.

 

[alex3619]

Arachidonic was almost in the high range (and it's labeled as 'pro-inflammatory on the test result, but it's my understanding that AA is both pro and anti-inflammatory?

Actually, on balance I think both series 2 omega-6 (from arachidonic acid) and series 3 omega-3 eicosanoids are considered inflammatory. But its more complicated. One omega-6 series 1 eicosanoid is considered vasodilatory (PGE1). Series 2 eicosanoids include important anti-inflammatory hormones, as do omega-3. It all depends on how the body uses them.

What is the case though is that the omega-3 eicosanoids are on balance very very mildly inflammatory, and the series 2 eicosanoids are very inflammatory, so putting the emphasis on omega-3s creates a huge reduction in the inflammatory status. Its why its called anti-inflammatory, because in moderation it reduced inflammation.

If the body gets the balance wrong then we can wind up with inflammation. This is largely due to other factors, though restricting arachidonic acid will reduce pain and inflammation. However it also reduces important hormones, just like Vioxx did. We may need to accept that low levels of inflammation are the price of avoiding deficiency states.

I was on evening primrose oil for years. For the first two or so years, it helped. Then it became a problem.