Australian government extending age for "crackdown" on DSP recipients

[MeSci]

I think if a socialist system was funded properly the researchers would be plenty motivated. The researchers aren't the ones motivated by $$, the investors are, because they are the ones who get the $$. The researchers are motivated by the puzzle, a functioning lab, and helping people. They should make an upper middle class income, but I don't know a researcher who cares much about money beyond that.

Good researchers are motivated by scientific curiosity. But all-too-many just see it as a means to achieve status and a good income. It is quite common for researchers to ignore findings that don't suit them because they disprove a hypothesis in which their status is invested, or because pharmaceutical companies don't want research published that shows their products in a bad light. Now we seem to have researchers ignoring and misrepresenting findings because they don't suit the government.

I have had a number of run-ins with researchers at my alma mater, challenging false claims that they made about their research.

 

[ahmo]

So grateful that I was just shifted onto old age pension. This scenario has been something I've had to talk myself into disregarding many times over the years, 'just don't go there.' As if we have a choice. Yes, plan E for Exit.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Capitalism is failing as Marx said, while some of Marx's stuff was...missed some points on Human reality while hitting very well on others...he did have good points, as Adam Smith did as well.
Problem is, systems based just around money or power will *always* warp to horror.
UK/SUA have been slaughtering the world and dare have the gall to say on Stalin was the worst?! pfft, pot kettle black! We've been at continual war for hundreds of years.

yes, Wessely and many others are supported by those who seek profit, we are not profit therefor we must go, the truth behind the Nazi regime which was just a puppet for those who desired more power/wealth and put those loons in power as tools. Same is happening again.
Soviet's crappy Socialism spread across Asia because Asia had little concepts of Human Rights and land theft was horrendous, so of course folk were happy to do something to change that...and then found out they'd swapped one evil for another.
please read up on history of serfs in Russia, Poland etc

Our societies worship war for robbing resources, damn truth, soon as one enemy ends another is *made* to excuse wars, we're living in "1984" Orwell couldn't have dreamed of it's so slick and suffocating.
Sigh

as I've said many times, problem the UK medical system has is arrogance, the "professional" classes here think they are gods, class system etc, sucks and truth is medical profession is a *religious* institution in nature, not science.
America IS becoming a class based system, see student tuition fees, hard proof. The Haves and the Have Nots.
Way it *always* goes.
etc etc

all completely overlooking fact that things like, yes, researchers do what they do for the sheer JOY OF IT!
we've been warped by society to accept being slaves to one side or the other, to hell with them both.
21st century, time for change.

And, Heapsreal, no money doesn't "fix" things, simple proof, ME/CFS costs nations billions, yet they don't cure it, because they don't give a crap. (See HIV too, way they were left to rot)
The assholes in power haven't a clue about real economics (see economic crash as proof) or care about people, many of those who become leaders are actual sociopaths or become functionally sociopathic and/or paranoid.

money is just meant to be a tool, for transfer of energy like hydraulic fluid, but it's become like *heroin*
They know the price everything, and the value of nothing.
Money has no existance any more, it's all in binary code on computers, they sold the gold reserves off...get it yet?
We're being played for SUCKERS by the bankers etc
UK's right wing loons have slashed taxes for the rich, yet slashed welfare for the sick/poor, while crying about the deficit. Same as Bushoid did dropping US into massive debt (you do NOT cut taxes for the well off during a war, FFS!) So the "defecit" in UK has skyrocketed.
They are NOT "Capitalists", they are psychopaths and Corporate Fascists, enormous difference.

 

[MeSci]

So grateful that I was just shifted onto old age pension. This scenario has been something I've had to talk myself into disregarding many times over the years, 'just don't go there.' As if we have a choice. Yes, plan E for Exit.

I'm looking forward to getting my state pension in 2 years' time, but am angry at being in this position. I wanted to live my life - not wish it away.

It was only when 2 occupational pensions matured last year that I was finally raised out of poverty, but I still have to watch my spending and am well in debit on my credit card.

I actually feel more sorry for the younger sufferers.

 

[ahmo]

I actually feel more sorry for the younger sufferers.

Absolutely. Not only financially.

 

[alex3619]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke

 

[JAM]

Good researchers are motivated by scientific curiosity. But all-too-many just see it as a means to achieve status and a good income. It is quite common for researchers to ignore findings that don't suit them because they disprove a hypothesis in which their status is invested, or because pharmaceutical companies don't want research published that shows their products in a bad light. Now we seem to have researchers ignoring and misrepresenting findings because they don't suit the government.

I have had a number of run-ins with researchers at my alma mater, challenging false claims that they made about their research.

That is a problem with the capitalist system, not a social system. Pharma companies are for profit, that is the problem. Take away the $$ carrot and that problem goes away. The researchers in it for the money will find something else to do.

 

[heapsreal]

With respect, that is a naive, simplistic, and anachronistic understanding of these matters.

You think the sick and disabled will get a better deal from our current radical right government than the previous centrist one?

Care to point out which of this current government's policies work in our favour?

Trying to make it simplistic to understand it.

My point is neither govts are helping cfsme.
As has been mentioned that researchers aren't motivated by money but if there is no money in the research than they aren't going to be able to put food on their own table. I can't see them doing it for nothing.

my point is that most govts don't recognize cfsme and so little funding is given, which makesit harder to prove this iillness.

If it costs too much to prove this illness than private sector aren't going to chase after treatments. I think once there is a test for cfs/me than you will see big pharma chasing after treatments motivated by making money.

i don't understand why the govt don't chase a treatment for cfsme harder, as this would help people recover and be able to join the work force.Neither govt really care about trying to get people of disability by trying to make them well, instead the narrow the criteria for disability making it harder for those who need it.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Heapsreal
I'm really sorry to maybe shatter illusions, but our governments exist only TO KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER
that's it.
Hence one issue I keep going on about: nuclear weapons. All a huge ocn game to scare folk and be sheeple who'll support the government by fear of the Bomb, to think the Bomb has power os leaders have power.

if those lunatics have started and kept us in continual states of war, butchering millions of people, for several centuries, why would you think they'd give a damn about us, hm?

As I have repeatedly said SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE GREASE!
those bastards in government won't lift a hand unless an issue makes them money or keeps them in power
if our antics threatened their power by exposing how useless and cruel they were, THEN they'd act
see the stuff the HIV activists did early on cause the government of USA was more concerned about not dealing with "faggots" than saving lives!
murderous insanity that let many die and HIV take root in the populace.
*spits in anger*

sorry for nasty word but plain ugly truth, see antics of scumbag in Texas airport other day as to attitudes there still are to gays, sigh!!
Reagan's government had their thumb up their ass ignoring the issue so as not to offend the "Moral Majority", who were neither moral nor a majority.
*loved* the one when gay bashing preacher was outed as having snorted meth off a gay hooker's ass as one of his hypocritical antics, buhaha!!

so making us look to be whinging malingerers is quite deliberate, a standard tactic of bullies everywhere: single out, cut out from support, make the victim look deserving of abuse, then go in for the kill!

 

[heapsreal]

@SilverbladeTE your not shattering my illusions at all. My point is no govt is helping us. I think it's strange that people bash the current govt which has more capitalist views, when the previous govt with more socialist views, have also left us out in the cold.

You are dead right, the govt don't give a crap, it's all about buying votes and staying in power and riding the gravy train which all politicians do. They are all corrupt .

where does that leave us?

I mention the whole capitalist socialist thing because the only place that one seems to be able to get some sort of treatment is in the USA, if you have the $$$$. I'm not in a debate of which is better but if one was to look for a treatment for cfsme, it would seem that it's more likely be found in the USA.

I'm sure if some millionaire came down with cfs, they wouldn't be flocking to the UK for treatment but more likely USA for a treatment.

those of us with no money doesn't give us much hope. But I think down the track treatments that the wealthy can get for cfsme will slowly filter down to more main stream treatments that the next generation of cfsers might be lucky to get.

that's how i see the future. Govts don't care and only trying to save money and public sector don't care unless they can make money out of it. Unless there is some radical changes that occur.

I don't understand how you say money isn't important in this illness, in an ideal world it wouldn't be an issue, sad fact is that it costs a lot of money for research required to do anything with this illness. If this wasn't the case we would have good diagnostic testing and treatments.

In Australia we have had both sides of politics in power over the last decade. Both have done very little for cfsme. I don't have much faith in either really helping us.

 

[alex3619]

Years ago I pointed out that if just 0.1% of the costs of ME and CFS to society were spent on research we would be much better off than we are. Its not rational for governments to let this slip, yet they have, repeatedly, worldwide, from all parties, for half a century or more. Only Japan may be the exception ... not the US! Japan has an integrated and funded program, though we often don't hear much about it. The US is the biggest funder though.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Absolutely. Not only financially.

People sometimes ask me about my social life.

What is that, I've been ill since I was 15!?!

 

[ahmo]

So sorry SL

 

[JAM]

Trying to make it simplistic to understand it.

As has been mentioned that researchers aren't motivated by money but if there is no money in the research than they aren't going to be able to put food on their own table. I can't see them doing it for nothing.

No one is suggesting they work for free. As a society we can choose to pay them a reasonable salary for their work, just like we do every other government job; teachers, police forces, fire fighters, librarians, accountants... all publicly funded "socialist" jobs.

 

[biophile]

None of the major parties have been particularly helpful to ME/CFS specifically, but ask yourself these questions:

(Right now), which party is more likely to make it harder for eligible patients to receive the welfare and support they need? Which party has been caught out lying about or grossly exaggerating the unsustainability of welfare and healthcare spending, and is more likely to push rhetoric about benefits scroungers and "lifters vs leaners" to appeal to certain voters, and risk an ATOS style scandal to save a few dollars to appear to be doing something about the (largely feigned) public debt and budget deficit "emergency"? Which party has committed the most lies, spin, and understatements about their true policy intentions? Which party copies and pastes their policy ideas from right-wing think tanks associated with media moguls?

For many patients, kicking them off DSP and forcing them onto the lower paying Newstart Allowance with constant assessments, false expectations about recovery, and ongoing suspicions about their eligibility, will eventually sooner or later, destroy what little of their lives and sanity remains. For those of you unfortunate enough to require the DSP but fortunate enough to have been successfully granted it, this current mob are a threat to your future health and well-being.

The idea of CBT/GET proponents in the UK whispering in the Australian government's ear about the wonderful rehabilitative properties of these therapies is concerning. Their own state of the art trial failed to deliver and showed no improvement to welfare and employment outcomes, yet we still have to put up with dubious claims about recovery.

 

[heapsreal]

No one is suggesting they work for free. As a society we can choose to pay them a reasonable salary for their work, just like we do every other government job; teachers, police forces, fire fighters, librarians, accountants... all publicly funded "socialist" jobs.

Thats fine and that would be great but we still need to be recognised as being a serious illness.

Im not saying dont pay researcher, pay them every cent they deserve, but there is just know money given to cfsme research or very very little compared to other illnesses.

You left off my socialist job which was run much better under a non govt body. Now the system i work for just gets abused because its supposedly free and costing tax payers millions more than it use to. Probably the reason for my views. I think there is a happy medium somewhere but any political view taken to extreme is going to cause alot of problems.

 

[heapsreal]

The idea of CBT/GET proponents in the UK whispering in the Australian government's ear about the wonderful rehabilitative properties of these therapies is concerning. Their own state of the art trial failed to deliver and showed no improvement to welfare and employment outcomes, yet we still have to put up with dubious claims about recovery.

Lets hope they dont listen to the UK crap and listen to their own researchers at Griffith uni who have been partially funded by the state govt as well as a couple of philanthropists interested in solving this problem who have donated heavily into several projects that griffith have been involved in on cfs/me. Maybe there is someone in the state government that realises if they wont people off disability then they are going to have to improve research into many chronic conditions and find good treatments. Maybe the reason behind the federal govts initiatives to try and improve medical research.

Currently Griffith are presenting information on cfs/me at the International Cytokine and Interferon Society Conference in Melbourne. http://www.cytokines2014.com/
http://www.griffith.edu.au/health/national-centre-neuroimmunology-emerging-diseases article down the bottom of the second link talks about this conference.

 

[alex3619]

No one is suggesting they work for free. As a society we can choose to pay them a reasonable salary for their work, just like we do every other government job; teachers, police forces, fire fighters, librarians, accountants... all publicly funded "socialist" jobs.

The issue is less about paying the scientists than paying for $4 million dollar pieces of equipment (modern labs cost), and possibly $50,000 in costs of tests for each research subject. For a statistically useful population size of say 100, that could be $5,000,000. What we get instead is smaller and cheaper studies (usually) or we wait until testing costs come down (which means using older tests and equipment).

Science is expensive. Scientists on the other hand are usually paid much less than other professions. If they primarily wanted money they would be lawyers or accountants.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

yeah there was real problems with brain drian in UK/USA because bright students went into the vile crap that is the current financial system
instead of developing/uncovering all kinds of useful stuff, they were making bullcrap financial algorithms etc that did nothing but make billions by shaving microfractions of a cent off super fast computer transactions
except it wasn't really "making" money, it's all a con game, and the computers nearly nosedived the world's economy into nothing because they really do not understand value of things.

 

[Sean]

In Australia we have had both sides of politics in power over the last decade. Both have done very little for cfsme.

I agree that it has not been a specific priority by either side. No brownie points for anybody there.

But if you think that the sick and disabled in general (not to mention the working poor) in this country are going to get a better deal overall from this government, than from the alternative, then I think you are seriously mistaken.

Which party copies and pastes their policy ideas from right-wing think tanks associated with media moguls?

...and mining magnates. Etc.