Autoimmune Diseases Caused by Bacteria?

[wciarci]

Hi everyone, I have not posted for a long time but want to chime in here. I had scleroderma saw a doctor in Boston, placed on antibiotic therepy for 2 or 3 years and achieved complete remission. My local rheumy now uses it on his sclero patients. There are some studies looking at tick borne pathogens as triggers and there is a link between hashimotos and lyme disease. B. Miyamotoi is a newly discovered tick infection that they are now investigating but so new that there is not a test for it. I am somewhat recovered from cfs but not completly, I wish that my doctor had kept me on antibiotics longer. I also remember reading about Dr. Salks research in bacterial infection and RA. I do think that there is a connection between autoimmune and infection. Right now I am home from work, sick with shingles and all my cfs symtoms are very bad.
W.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Ok as @Jonathan Edwards doesn't seem to have any idea why abx can help people feel better after only a day or two, I will ask this question.

Are the bacteria in the gut more susceptible to antibiotics than in other places in the body, and that's why they can have an effect so quickly?

I think my answer was that there were too many possible reasons!

Feeling better with antibiotics in a day or two is standard if you are treating an infection. Fever should fall within 12-24 hours.

Bacteria in the gut are likely to be more susceptible to antibiotics simply on the basis that that is where you are usually putting them in, so the place of highest concentration (unless of course they are given IV when the gut would have the lowest concentration).

Another point is that whatever is making one feel ill, a full gut often makes that worse. Which is probably why historically people used purgatives for almost everything. Empty the gut and you feel a bit better. Antibiotics often produce diarrhoea and empty the gut pretty quickly. If ME involves hypersensitivity to signals including those through the autonomic system then emptying the gut might help quite a bit over a period of 48 hours but this is not going to help long term, I don't think. I am not quite sure where this all leads...

 

[knackers323]

I think my answer was that there were too many possible reasons!

Feeling better with antibiotics in a day or two is standard if you are treating an infection. Fever should fall within 12-24 hours.

Bacteria in the gut are likely to be more susceptible to antibiotics simply on the basis that that is where you are usually putting them in, so the place of highest concentration (unless of course they are given IV when the gut would have the lowest concentration).

Another point is that whatever is making one feel ill, a full gut often makes that worse. Which is probably why historically people used purgatives for almost everything. Empty the gut and you feel a bit better. Antibiotics often produce diarrhoea and empty the gut pretty quickly. If ME involves hypersensitivity to signals including those through the autonomic system then emptying the gut might help quite a bit over a period of 48 hours but this is not going to help long term, I don't think. I am not quite sure where this all leads...

Ok. Thanks for your reply. I know in the past when I've had pharyngitis it's taken about three days on abx to start to feel better but like a few others on here after one day on an abx I felt that much better, I actually told my family I think I had found the cure for me.

I have been able to repeat this process on four other occasions so it wasn't just coincidence. However on each occasion the effect got slightly less pronounced.

The original Dr who proscribed them said the abx were treating my stomach dysbiosis and that these bacteria build tolerance really quickly. ?

I have also tested positive to mycoplasma fermentans.

I also know that people treating intercellular bacteria like mycoplasma, lyme etc. can take months on abx before they see improvement.

@wciarci was it the abx that has improved your cfs?

 

[wciarci]

Hi knackers, yes it was the ab therepy that improved my cfs. After about a year and some months, I had days where I woke up in the am and felt normal. It felt fantastic. After being taken off, I regressed a bit but I can still work full time as a teacher, which takes a lot of energy. I also took supplements, juiced etc. I need to get back on them.

Minocin is an immune modulator and has been used successfully in RA, see MIRA trials. It is also a microglial cell inhibitor (see simmaron research in cfs dec 2013, vagus nerve infection hypothesis). New theory is looking at cfs as an infection in the vagus nerve, so it is where the infection is, rather than the specific pathogen.

W

 

[wciarci]

The latent virus placement, esp herpes family viruses, makes sense to me. How ironic that in high school I was a science geek and wrote a research paper on the role of herpes viruses in chronic disease states. The paper was submitted to the states science fair. I at one time, wanted to be a science researcher.

W

 

[acer2000]

Hi everyone, I have not posted for a long time but want to chime in here. I had scleroderma saw a doctor in Boston, placed on antibiotic therepy for 2 or 3 years and achieved complete remission. My local rheumy now uses it on his sclero patients. There are some studies looking at tick borne pathogens as triggers and there is a link between hashimotos and lyme disease. B. Miyamotoi is a newly discovered tick infection that they are now investigating but so new that there is not a test for it. I am somewhat recovered from cfs but not completly, I wish that my doctor had kept me on antibiotics longer. I also remember reading about Dr. Salks research in bacterial infection and RA. I do think that there is a connection between autoimmune and infection. Right now I am home from work, sick with shingles and all my cfs symtoms are very bad.
W.

FWIW there is some evidence that in patients with scleroderma, treating SIBO with antibiotics (if present) helps improve both the SIBO and the scleroderma. Curious, which antibiotic did you take? Did you take it continuously? And also did you have ocular manifestations of scleroderma?

 

[knackers323]

@wciarci so you had no sign of infection but were treating the scleroderma and by accident your cfs improved?

Have you ever had a gut dysbiosis test?

 

[MEMum]

@wciarci so you had no sign of infection but were treating the scleroderma and by accident your cfs improved?

Have you ever had a gut dysbiosis test?

Hi Knackers,
My daughter showed no symptoms of infection when she was first given antibiotics. It was just that her blood level of antibodies to streptolysin (a toxin produced by streps) was high. She did not have sore throat/fever etc.
The only time she had confirmed infection (tonsillitis) was about 2 months after the first antibiotic (? rebound effect).
This Ab was i/m injected penicillin and it too about 6 weeks for improvement to start. One day she just said "I think I'll have a look at MyMaths", ie school online AS level Maths. She then gradually improved in both cognitive function and stamina and took exams in the May. The tonsillitis was at end of April, for which she had Azithromycin, full dose for 5 days, then one, 3 days a week till end of May. She started recovering from the tonsillitis within a few days of Azith.

 

[msf]

I've just read this post on health rising, and it made me realise something about chronic bacterial infections: http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/2014/11/22/infections-genes-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

I was curious to know more about Q fever, and when I looked it up I found that, although it usually is successfully treated by a short course of antibiotics, in cases where endocarditis is involved, 18 months of antibiotics is recommended!

This is from the CDC website! So here we have a bacteria that is (if caught early enough) successfully treated with 2-3 weeks of doxy(like lyme), and that sometimes can cause endocarditis (like lyme), but in this case the use of extremely long-term antibiotics to treat the same condition is apparently standard practice!

I know someone will point out that we have to follow the science, but I think that often it is the other way round, i.e. the science (studies) end up following the researcher's prejudices.

Also, I was thinking about what Prof. Edwards said about the reason why TB is known to cause chronic infections in some cases (those people went on to infect others) and I realised that condition is a non-starter in infections like Lyme, Q fever and Yersinia that aren't spread by person-to-person contact.

 

[msf]

Oh, and on the subject of Yersinia, I was interested to hear that you also didn't have any Bifidobacterium, Valentjin. From what I can make out from KDM's paper on the microbiome, this isn't the case in the majority of his patients. I have also seen a couple of studies where B. Adolescentis inhibited the spread of Yersinia in mice. Since then I have been trying to find a probiotic that contains this strain, without any luck so far. I'm taking VSL-3, but I've just ordered a prebiotic that is supposed to increase the levels of Bifidobacteria in only 7 days! Although I'm assuming that was in healthy people...

 

[msf]

Just to amuse myself, I have been weighing up my options re: B. Adolescentis: 1.) order some from a company that makes it for research purposes. 2.) steal some from said company. 3.) obtain some breast milk from somewhere (I'm single).

Any suggestions?

 

[knackers323]

Hi Knackers,
My daughter showed no symptoms of infection when she was first given antibiotics. It was just that her blood level of antibodies to streptolysin (a toxin produced by streps) was high. She did not have sore throat/fever etc.
The only time she had confirmed infection (tonsillitis) was about 2 months after the first antibiotic (? rebound effect).
This Ab was i/m injected penicillin and it too about 6 weeks for improvement to start. One day she just said "I think I'll have a look at MyMaths", ie school online AS level Maths. She then gradually improved in both cognitive function and stamina and took exams in the May. The tonsillitis was at end of April, for which she had Azithromycin, full dose for 5 days, then one, 3 days a week till end of May. She started recovering from the tonsillitis within a few days of Azith.

Is this the same strep that can be found in people's gut bacteria?

 

[MEMum]

Is this the same strep that can be found in people's gut bacteria?

Hi Knackers
The ASO is a test for sore throat type streps:Group A Beta-haemolytic. From memory the throat one is strep pyogenes.
I am not sure which are found in the gut....

 

[physicsstudent13]

so is rocephin really helpful for brain fog and cognitive impairment? is it safe to take for 10 days straight at 1g/day in IM injection? I read of one study where a 21 year old developed serious disease after being on 2g/day IV for 7 days?

 

[Valentijn]

so is rocephin really helpful for brain fog and cognitive impairment? is it safe to take for 10 days straight at 1g/day in IM injection? I read of one study where a 21 year old developed serious disease after being on 2g/day IV for 7 days?

I know that the answer is "no" based on requests pertaining to your constant bouts of scare-mongering, but could you PLEASE cite to documentation supporting your claims?

I'm starting to think you're just inventing crap to discredit treatments which you personally disbelieve in without any scientific basis.

FYI, 88 out of your 320 posts contain the word "damage". Maybe it's time to take a step back and a deep breath or two.

 

[Daffodil]

interesting paper by waterhouse...obvious overlap with marshall protocol stuff....but interesting nonetheless. vitamin d receptor dysfunction, bacteria etc:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19758226


as i mentioned in another thread...maybe pre existing IBS is caused by intracellular bacteria (which there is some evidence for and which most of us had before the CFS) spread in us due to some immune challenge (mono?) and that is causing / perpetuating the CFS?

all of this stuff is over my head...just browsing google lol

 

[msf]

I don't know enough about Vitamin D receptors to know whether this is a factor in some diseases, but the Marshall hypothesis is much too simplistic to account for all those diseases, in my opinion...if I take my own case, I have tested positive for two intracellular bacteria, Chlamydia Pnuemonie and Yersinia Enterocolitica, the first for IgG and the second for both IgG and IgA. The second was the trigger for my illness, and since they are transmitted by different routes it seems unlikely that I acquired these simultaneously. Since I only tested positive for IgG for CPn it seems likely that I was infected with this first, perhaps many years ago. So why didn't this infection trigger my current illness? It could be something to do with a change in vitamin receptor function, but it's probably more likely that it has something to do with my body's response to the bacteria themselves.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all intracellular bacteria are not equal.

Oh, and the Marshall Protocol might be right that it is a good idea to limit Vitamin D, but unfortunately the method for doing so would also limit the amount of serotonin you would produce. I have noticed that when I don't get enough sunlight my symptoms seem to get worse, and most of these could be linked to serotonin production: sleep, gut motility, fasciculations.

 

[msf]

Also, I'd imagine that telling severely disabled ME patients that they need to get less sunlight would be a bit like telling them not to go to the gym so much.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

interesting paper by waterhouse...obvious overlap with marshall protocol stuff....but interesting nonetheless. vitamin d receptor dysfunction, bacteria etc:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19758226


as i mentioned in another thread...maybe pre existing IBS is caused by intracellular bacteria (which there is some evidence for and which most of us had before the CFS) spread in us due to some immune challenge (mono?) and that is causing / perpetuating the CFS?

all of this stuff is over my head...just browsing google lol

To be honest I doubt it is so much over your head as just drivel. Almost anything gets published these days and the abstract of this paper seems to me to be about as ill informed and nonsensical as you can get.

 

[Daffodil]

To be honest I doubt it is so much over your head as just drivel. Almost anything gets published these days and the abstract of this paper seems to me to be about as ill informed and nonsensical as you can get.

but why is it that sarcoidosis responds to antibiotics? and why do many people (dr strattons wife for example) respond to them in MS?

you probably told me before but my fog lol