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CBT is a scam and a waste of money

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
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USA
However, the problems go deeper than you suggest. If someone is to promote (or test) a modality as a "cure" or treatment for something, that something must first be diagnosed. This brings us to the diagnostic systems used by psychiatry (DSM) with diagnoses such as MDD, OCD, ODD and what have you. But these diagnoses are already problematic and unscientific, as they are clinically (subjectively) assigned. There are no objective biomarkers to validate these diagnoses. Does narcisistic personality disorder exist? Does oppositional defiant disorder?

How do they find patients with only one psychiatric condition to enroll in clinical trials? It seems like patients with multiple conditions are more common than someone with just one condition. Most clinical trials specify that the subjects have to be between the ages of 18 and 65, in good physical health and not on any medications that would interfere with the study. That leaves out a lot of people. At least there are studies aimed specifically at adolescents and seniors.
 

adreno

PR activist
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4,841
How do they find patients with only one psychiatric condition to enroll in clinical trials? It seems like patients with multiple conditions are more common than someone with just one condition. Most clinical trials specify that the subjects have to be between the ages of 18 and 65, in good physical health and not on any medications that would interfere with the study. That leaves out a lot of people. At least there are studies aimed specifically at adolescents and seniors.
Well, I guess if you don't fit into a single box, you can fit into three of them. And yes, these psychiatric comorbidities are another problem that muddy the picture even further. Something patients with these are included, sometimes excluded, all based on clinical evaluation.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
How do they find patients with only one psychiatric condition to enroll in clinical trials? It seems like patients with multiple conditions are more common than someone with just one condition. Most clinical trials specify that the subjects have to be between the ages of 18 and 65, in good physical health and not on any medications that would interfere with the study. That leaves out a lot of people. At least there are studies aimed specifically at adolescents and seniors.

This is actually a huge problem in psychiatry. Most pharma trials, as you point out, are done on patients who only have the disorder in question and no other conditions. Trial participants are usually not representative of routine clinical practice where most people have multiple psychiatric and medical comorbidities, are taking several drugs already etc. Once a drug has been approved and starts being used on real-world patients you usually find out that its efficacy is lower than thought and all kinds of side effects emerge that weren't spotted in trials.
 
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alex3619

Senior Member
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13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
However, the problems go deeper than you suggest. If someone is to promote (or test) a modality as a "cure" or treatment for something, that something must first be diagnosed. This brings us to the diagnostic systems used by psychiatry (DSM) with diagnoses such as MDD, OCD, ODD and what have you. But these diagnoses are already problematic and unscientific, as they are clinically (subjectively) assigned. There are no objective biomarkers to validate these diagnoses. Does narcisistic personality disorder exist? Does oppositional defiant disorder?

So really, as long as we have no scientific diagnoses, any talk about testing or proving therapy scientifically against these disorders, is in fact meaningless.

I think I have written about this before, though maybe mostly in my notes. I completely agree. One of my arguments against evidence based medicine for psychopsychiatry is this: how can you have a study for an evidence based therapy when the diagnosis might not even exist? When it may be complicated by other issues, like nutrition and genetics? Diagnostic criteria are a huge problem in psychiatry. Most are not properly validated. Most are probably syndromes, and consist of subgroups or subgroups overlapping with similar disorders.

Until psychiatry can have objective diagnostic tests its unlikely it can ever be first rate science. It certainly isn't now.

The DSM has been revealed as highly unscientific, which should not have been a surprise. Psychiatry is not really a science.
 

justy

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5,524
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U.K
I think we are getting in a bit of a muddle here in the difference between psychiatry, psychodynamic Freudian theory and talking therapies.

I have trained as a counsellor and know many people who work in this field. I don't know anyone who goes around claiming to cure people of anything. A good counsellor or psychotherapist is there to support people in distress, whatever the issue - not to cure them and I don't think most claim they do.

Lets not forget that medication for anxiety and depression has been largely discredited - especially the newer class of SSRI drugs - we know for a fact that the drug companies inflated their claims of helping people and hid trial data that showed serious problems with the drugs. More than one trial has shown medication for depression to be no more helpful than good talking therapies which came out with slightly better outcomes for people.

Psychotherapy, counselling and other types of talking therapies are considered supportive of the client and their lives, this has been my experience on both sides of the couch so to speak and of many other people that I have met.

My husband works in schools with vulnerable youngsters who may be suffering abuse, be carers for ill parents or have lost a parent through death, prison or abandonment - are we seriously slagging off the people who work hard, for little pay to support and help those suffering in this way?
 

jimells

Senior Member
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2,009
Location
northern Maine
Surely the only really beneficial thing about talking therapy is the patient can believe that they're talking to someone who cares?

I'm not convinced that therapists as a whole particularly care about the patient in a personal way. My usual impression is that the therapist views me as a broken machine in need of repair. It's like taking your car to a mechanic. I expect mechanics to care about their work, but not to have a relationship with my vehicle.

And it's very demoralizing to think that I have to *pay* someone to be my friend...
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Until psychiatry can have objective diagnostic tests its unlikely it can ever be first rate science. It certainly isn't now.

The DSM has been revealed as highly unscientific, which should not have been a surprise. Psychiatry is not really a science.
Right, but psychotherapy traditionally does not belong to the realm of psychiatry, but rather psychology. And many psychologists (and therapists) are severely critical of psychiatry and it's dogmatized system of diagnosis.

So in fact you are criticising psychotherapy, a psychological intervention often critical of psychiatry and the DSM, for not being scientifically valid as a treatment for psychiatric diagnoses/disorders that you don't even accept to begin with.

I agree with justy that there is a muddle pool of understanding what is psychology, what is psychiatry and what is psychotherapy here.
 
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worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
I'm not convinced that therapists as a whole particularly care about the patient in a personal way. My usual impression is that the therapist views me as a broken machine in need of repair. It's like taking your car to a mechanic. I expect mechanics to care about their work, but not to have a relationship with my vehicle.

And it's very demoralizing to think that I have to *pay* someone to be my friend...

What I was getting at is that it's probably useful for the patient to feel that someone is listening, that they are on their side and trying to help, which could be useful whether it is in a professional capacity or not, and which definitely isn't going to happen with computerised CBT. I don't think that necessarily has to mean identifying with them as a friend, but certainly means forming a bond of trust. But I'm not an expert in these things, just bandying about ill-informed opinions as ever. This is the internet, isn't it?

The only time I ever saw a psychiatrist, it was on ME business. I was informed that he 'didn't believe' in ME on his entering the room (the first time I'd ever heard the term), and he proceeded to decide that my illness was based on 'emotional problems', discussed me with a colleague as if I wasn't there and implied that people my age (20) were incapable of making decisions of their own volition. I didn't return. I think it's safe to say that we didn't form a bond based on mutual trust and respect.;)
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
Right, but psychotherapy traditionally does not belong to the realm of psychiatry, but rather psychology. And many psychologists (and therapists) are severely critical of psychiatry and it's dogmatized system of diagnosis.

And while psychologists are critical of the DSM, they are still depending on it for diagnosis, right? Until the psychologists and psychiatrists get their own houses in order, how can patients be expected to take them seriously?

@justy I do recognize there are therapists/counselors that very much care about their clients and will do whatever they can to help them. In my experience, they are the exception. And a hat tip to your husband for his work.
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
Right, but psychotherapy traditionally does not belong to the realm of psychiatry, but rather psychology.

not sure but talk therapy was popularized by a physician(freud) and most of the earlier analysts had medical not psychological training. this is also true for most of the earlier somatization disorder research. the BPS was introduced by a psychiatrist(engel). CT (a precursor to CBT) was developed by a psychiatrist(Beck).

strangely talk therapy is a medical invention to a large part.

also strangely most of the "psychological" diagnoses were developed by physicians. Psychiatry controls the DSM. Can psychologists vote disorders into existence? I think they don't have the power to do this.
 
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adreno

PR activist
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4,841
also strangely most of the "psychological" diagnoses were developed by physicians. Psychiatry controls the DSM. Can psychologists vote disorders into existence? I think they don't have the power to do this.
There are no "psychological diagnoses". There is only the DSM and ICD, controlled by psychiatry as you say.

Some psychologists work in the psychiatry field, and use the DSM/ICD, but many psychologists do not. Psychotherapists don't have to be psychologists, either. For the vast majority of people (like the examples justy gave - people who have been abused or suffered loss) who seek counseling or psychotherapy, any psychiatric diagnoses are not important or even used.

Furthermore, psychotherapy is much more than CBT or freudianism. Humanistic and narrative therapies are not interested in DSM diagnoses. And psychology is much more than psychotherapy. For example, social psychologists do not believe in individual therapy, as they believe any issues people suffer stem from social context, rather than the individual.
 
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alex3619

Senior Member
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13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Lets not forget that medication for anxiety and depression has been largely discredited - especially the newer class of SSRI drugs - we know for a fact that the drug companies inflated their claims of helping people and hid trial data that showed serious problems with the drugs.

Agreed.

are we seriously slagging off the people who work hard, for little pay to support and help those suffering in this way?

A big problem is to a large extent with those promoting CBT and psychodynamics. The first is overhyped, the second is mostly fiction. I have met many good counselors. I have two as friends. The issues arise when claims are made that are very unscientific and at the same time they claim scientific status. Many regular counselors don't do that. Many psychiatrists do.

A problem is that psychiatry, and to a slightly lesser extent psychology, are not particular well grounded in science. There are issues with poor regulation of drug companies (billion dollar fines ... chump change), but also the medical profession (who judge themselves on medical matters) and psychiatry in particular. Psychiatry lacks objective evidence, lacks proper regulation, and is highly critical of criticism. Drug companies have laws passed to protect them from lawsuits., especially over vaccines. In some countries doctors do, and psychiatrists are particularly unaccountable. Even after psychiatrists do great harm no legal action (in court or otherwise) is likely to be successful. The APA (psychiatry) who write the DSM don't seem to have to conform to regular scientific methods., and are largely unaccountable.

I have met at least one good psychiatrist though, but not as a patient. These problems are not universal.
Just as there are good ME docs and then there are the rest.

As a hypothetical, if I could go back in time and stop Hitler before he started WW2, or Sigmund Freud before his career took off, I would choose Sigmund Freud. WW2 might have happened anyway, but good old Sigmund's legacy is still abusing patients today and I think was really a unique event. Psychology and psychiatry would probably be in a better place today if he had never taken the path he did.

Counseling has always been with us too, though it used to be wise women, chiefs, or priests if you go back far enough. Its not the theory that matters, its that someone cares.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Right, but psychotherapy traditionally does not belong to the realm of psychiatry, but rather psychology. And many psychologists (and therapists) are severely critical of psychiatry and it's dogmatized system of diagnosis.

It depends on the therapy. Psychoanalysis was restricted to psychiatrists for a time. Nobody else got training. I think that rule is no longer maintained though.

Psychologists have an advanced degree. Psychiatrists are MDs. Other counselors may have other qualifications.

This is NOT about the moral or ethical character of most practitioners. Its about the validity and efficacy of treatment.

The most problematic issues arise in psychiatry, not psychology or general counseling.

Yet people do research in these areas. They promote them. Its incumbent on them to use appropriate rigor.

Most people receive their training and go out to help patients. They do not usually get to be involved in continued research, nor defining their field. It is the people who do research, and especially those claiming scientific authority, who need to be held to account. This includes those advising governments and government bodies on policy - they need to act responsibly.

Yet who is it who decides the validity of the training received? Psychiatrists are MDs but the psychiatric training lacks scientific rigor. Psychologists at least often have some research qualifications, though not always.

Many of the whisteblowers in this area are psychologists, with quite a few psychiatrists thrown in. Even a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist might be unaware of how major decisions are made, especially diagnostic definitions.

I am in favor of expanding counseling, and downgrading psychiatry. Psychiatrists for the most part deal with clinical pathology, but the diagnoses are problematic and increasingly found to be about how the body affects the brain, not thoughts.

Psychologists are about thinking processes, emotions etc. They usually do not deal with clinical psychopathology, though sometimes that happens.

Sociologists have a different perspective again. Some schools with sociology seem to have a much better understanding of the issues than most psychiatrists. Yet to be clear I would regard any claim that clinical mental health issues are due to social context as problematic. Yet there is no doubt that many problems people have arise due to social interactions and environment.

Counselors often deal with the full range of issues, but more pathological cases will usually be referred to a psychiatrist.

I think psychiatry does not belong as a medical discipline. I am still thinking about this though. It may be that its far too premature to do away with psychiatry in favour of neurology, psychology etc. Biopsychiatry in particular usually involves drugs, and typically the prescription of most drugs is limited to doctors.

Yet the issue on this thread is CBT as a scam. Yes or No? I don't think a straight yes or no can be accurate.

Victims or perpetrators? Let me expand on this point. Academics decide on therapeutic doctrine. They research and teach it. Is a counselor, psychiatrist or psychologist who learns this to blame? I think not. This does not however mean what they are being taught has any substantive validity. They are not to blame. That does not mean that, for the most part, they are not responsible. Responsibility and blame are different. Yet the circumstances are such that individuals have diminished responsibility. No such claim can be made for large professional bodies, such as either APA. They are responsible as a body, though again with diminished responsibility for individual members. Coming back to the idea of victims, its probably valid to see most using these methods as victims - this is what they were trained in, and in some cases the trainers might be considered as victims as well.

Clearly the large professional bodies have failed, and continue to fail. This also applies to general medical bodies . It is also the case with those promoting therapies, especially to government or government agencies. Anyone deliberately misrepresenting claims in this context are to blame, not just responsible.

One last point. Generally speaking most claims about psychotherapy have little or no scientific validity. However its possible some might gain some scientific credence in the future. That should not be forgotten. Its also the case, just as with drugs, that while the theory might be wrong the therapy might still work and is lacking appropriate theory.
 
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adreno

PR activist
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4,841
@alex3619, I think we are mostly in agreement, after all. Your last post was very clear.

I recall Kuhns talk of paradigms. Original thought is rare in humanity, and most just follow paradigms.
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
As a hypothetical, if I could go back in time and stop Hitler before he started WW2, or Sigmund Freud before his career took off, I would choose Sigmund Freud. WW2 might have happened anyway, but good old Sigmund's legacy is still abusing patients today and I think was really a unique event. Psychology and psychiatry would probably be in a better place today if he had never taken the path he did.

You should go back even further and eradicate the coca plant. Without coca Freud's career might have never taken off.

Thinking about it the real problem might be.

Dualism[edit]
Further information: Mind-body dichotomy and dualism
Descartes in his Passions of the Soul and The Description of the Human Body suggested that the body works like a machine, that it has material properties. Themind (or soul), on the other hand, was described as a nonmaterial and does not follow the laws of nature. Descartes argued that the mind interacts with the body at the pineal gland. This form of dualism or duality proposes that the mind controls the body, but that the body can also influence the otherwise rational mind, such as when people act out of passion. Most of the previous accounts of the relationship between mind and body had been uni-directional.

I think the problem is that psychology and psychiatry think the natural sciences don't matter that much as the mind or the psyche does not follow the laws of nature. Most of Psychology or Psychiatry is not a science and never can be since the mind is just a human concept and cannot be studied directly. The problem is not that the concept exists the problem is that it is often sold to the public as science. No one knows what exactly they studying. They probably don't know it themselves. They often solve this problem by shifting all the blame to the patient so they can never be wrong, the therapy can never fail only the patient. Psychoanalysts for example would tell their patients that would show no improvement in therapy that they had subconsciously sought out therapy to grow their neurosis while consciously believing they wanted to get rid of it.

.
 
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adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I think the problem is that psychology and psychiatry think the natural sciences don't matter that much as the mind or the psyche does not follow the laws of nature. Most of Psychology or Psychiatry is not a science and never can be since the mind is just a human concept and cannot be studied directly.
I disagree with this. Psychology is a huge field, much more than psychotherapy and the metaphysics you allude to. Take a look at the following research, in which functional MRI was used to map out the network parcellation of the human cortex. This is work done by the department of psychology at Harvard. You are very welcome to point out any flaws in the research that you find unscientific:

The organization of the human cerebral cortex estimated by intrinsic functional connectivity

You might argue that the mind is studied indirectly here, but we are slowly identifying regions/networks and their relation to cognitive (and affective) functions in the brain, including attention, executive, visual and motor networks. If by mind you are referring to consciousness, we still don't understand that, but I see no reason why we won't in the future (unless you believe in metaphysics after all).

But yeah, I agree that Descartes got it wrong. Psychology were traditionally a discipline of the humanities, and perhaps mostly adherent to dualism. Many psychologists still are dualists, but a monist, materialist view is gaining popularity. And just for the record, Freud was a monist.

Psychology is very much divided as a field, but I think the trend is clear. We are seeing a paradigm shift happening these years. A good example of this is the RDoC project by the NIMH:

NIMH has launched the Research Domain Criteria (RDoC) project to transform diagnosis by incorporating genetics, imaging, cognitive science, and other levels of information to lay the foundation for a new classification system. This approach began with several assumptions:

  • A diagnostic approach based on the biology as well as the symptoms must not be constrained by the current DSM categories,
  • Mental disorders are biological disorders involving brain circuits that implicate specific domains of cognition, emotion, or behavior,
  • Each level of analysis needs to be understood across a dimension of function,
  • Mapping the cognitive, circuit, and genetic aspects of mental disorders will yield new and better targets for treatment.
 
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alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
You should go back even further and eradicate the coca plant. Without coca Freud's career might have never taken off.
Lol. :)
Most of Psychology or Psychiatry is not a science and never can be since the mind is just a human concept and cannot be studied directly.
I am a monist. Mind, to me, is just is just a made up convenient description of brain processes. As we understand the brain better we will understand those processes better.
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
adreno said:
disagree with this. Psychology is a huge field, much more than psychotherapy and the metaphysics you allude to. Take a look at the following research, in which functional MRI was used to map out the network parcellation of the human cortex. This is work done by the department of psychology at Harvard. You are very welcome to point out any flaws in the research that you find unscientific.

When i was referring to psychology is was referring to the metaphysical concepts on how the mind works. Obviously psychology is a broad field and i think what you are referring to is neuroscience and has nothing to to with most ideas in psychology.

Psychology would be scientific if they were a neuroscience and would actually study the brain not the psyche.

Most of the research in psychology (the one most of the therapies and theories are based on) is not based on neuroscience.

No therapy in psychology that i know of is based on neuroscience.

to give an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy

ACT is developed within a pragmatic philosophy called functional contextualism. ACT is based on relational frame theory (RFT), a comprehensive theory oflanguage and cognition that is an offshoot of behavior analysis. ACT differs from traditional cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) in that rather than trying to teach people to better control their thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories and other private events, ACT teaches them to "just notice," accept, and embrace their private events, especially previously unwanted ones.

ACT helps the individual get in contact with a transcendent sense of self known as "self-as-context"—the you that is always there observing and experiencing and yet distinct from one's thoughts, feelings, sensations, and memories. ACT aims to help the individual clarify their personal values and to take action on them, bringing more vitality and meaning to their life in the process, increasing their psychological flexibility.[3]

While Western psychology has typically operated under the "healthy normality" assumption which states that by their nature, humans are psychologically healthy, ACT assumes, rather, that psychological processes of a normal human mind are often destructive.[7] The core conception of ACT is that psychological suffering is usually caused by experiential avoidance, cognitive entanglement, and resulting psychological rigidity that leads to a failure to take needed behavioral steps in accord with core values. As a simple way to summarize the model, ACT views the core of many problems to be due to the concepts represented in t

Some of the concept that are mentioned here:

functional contextualism

Functional contextualism is a modern philosophy of science rooted in philosophical pragmatism and contextualism. It is most actively developed in behavioral science in general and the field of behavior analysis in particular. Functional contextualism serves as the basis of a theory of language known as relational frame theory[1] and its most prominent application, acceptance and commitment therapy.

relational frame theory

Relational Frame Theory argues that the building block of human language and higher cognition is 'relating', i.e. the human ability to create links between things. It can be contrasted with Associative Learning, which discusses how animals form links between stimuli in the form of the strength of associations in memory. However, Relational Frame Theory argues that natural human language typically specifies not just the strength of a link between stimuli but also the type of relation as well as the dimension along which they are to be related

behavior analysis

Behaviorism (or behaviourism), is an approach to psychology that combines elements of philosophy, methodology, and theory.[1] It emerged in the early twentieth century as a reaction to "mentalistic" psychology, which often had difficulty making predictions that could be tested using rigorous experimental methods. The primary tenet of behaviorism, as expressed in the writings of John B. Watson, B. F. Skinner, and others, is that psychology should concern itself with the observable behavior of people and animals, not with unobservable events that take place in their minds.[2]

transcendent sense of self

In everyday language, "transcendence" means "going beyond", and "self-transcendence" means going beyond a prior form or state of oneself. Mystical experience is thought of as a particularly advanced state of self-transcendence, in which the sense of a separate self is abandoned. "Self-transcendence" is believed to be psychometrically measurable, and (at least partially) inherited, and has been incorporated as a personality dimension in the Temperament and Character .

Experiential avoidance

Experiential avoidance (EA) has been broadly defined as attempts to avoid thoughts, feelings, memories, physical sensations, and other internal experiences—even when doing so creates harm in the long-run.[1] The process of EA is thought to be maintained through negative reinforcement—that is, short-term relief of discomfort is achieved through avoidance, thereby increasing the likelihood that the behavior will persist. Importantly, the current conceptualization of EA suggests that it is not negative thoughts, emotions, and sensations that are problematic, but how one responds to them that can cause difficulties

To me this is a myriad of speculative and vague ideas mixed with some theories based on crude experiments on how pigeons behave in a cage and how their behavior can be manipulated. Usually these theories are then validated with studies that lack placebo control groups.

Then they are promoted to be effective for an incredibly wide range of very serious physical and psychological problems.

ACT is still relatively new in the development of its research base with the randomized trials beginning in earnest only after the 1999 publication of the original book on ACT. ACT has shown preliminary research evidence of effectiveness in randomized trials for a variety of problems including chronic pain, addictions, smoking cessation, depression, anxiety, psychosis, workplace stress, diabetes management, weight management, epilepsy control, self-harm, body dissatisfaction, eating disorders, burn out, and several other areas.[21
 
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