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Detection of Mycotoxins in Patients with CFS

redaxe

Senior Member
Messages
230
Has anyone consulted both Dr Shoemaker and Dr Brewer?

What are the main differences in their understanding of mold sickness and treatment strategies?

They both understand that CFS is triggered from biotoxin exposure caused by contaminated buildings and subsequent colonization and infection of the sinuses right? Is it just that their treatments are different?
 
Messages
27
Location
Wilmington, North Carolina
Has anyone consulted both Dr Shoemaker and Dr Brewer?

What are the main differences in their understanding of mold sickness and treatment strategies?

They both understand that CFS is triggered from biotoxin exposure caused by contaminated buildings and subsequent colonization and infection of the sinuses right? Is it just that their treatments are different?

I just had an appointment with Dr Rapaport a LLMD that also is certified for mold by Shoemaker. She seems awesome so far. All my lab markers are elevated for mold (although those same markers get elevated for lyme), and I had exposure to 2 WDB before and after I got sick 1.5 years ago.

My intense symptoms started around a time I got a small rash on my back, so we are thinking Lyme and Mold is most likely in my case... but my Lyme test came back equivical so further testing is needed.

I have a feeling tons of people on this site are gonna get better with the info about mycotoxins coming out.
I just wish there were more case studies to read so I can get a feel of what my chances are of recovering fully once I start treatment.

I will keep everyone updated on my progress with the mycotoxin treatment.
 

Ifish

Senior Member
Messages
182
Has anyone consulted both Dr Shoemaker and Dr Brewer?

What are the main differences in their understanding of mold sickness and treatment strategies?

They both understand that CFS is triggered from biotoxin exposure caused by contaminated buildings and subsequent colonization and infection of the sinuses right? Is it just that their treatments are different?

If you read through prior postings there have been quite a lot of discussion about the different views of Shoemaker and Brewer. I am currently a Brewer patient and I was a Shoemaker patient quite a few years ago.

Shoemaker and Brewer both recognize mold exposure as the root cause of chronic illness in many people. They really don't agree on much beyond that. Shoemaker views mold illness as primarily an output issue, that is, he believes some people cannot detox mold toxins due to genetic issues.

Brewer believes that mold illness is rarely, if ever, an issue with detoxification. He views the problem as one of mold colonization in the body. So for him it is an output issue rather than an input issue. He feels if you can stop or significantly reduce the mycotoxin producing mold, the body will naturally detox accumulated toxins. In support of this he points to the fact that the vast majority of his CFS patients have positive urine mycotoxin tests. By definition one must be detoxing in order to test positive because mycoxins must leave the body in order to have a positive test.

Brewer formerly had patients try a variety of detox methods such as charcoal, etc. but he didn't get significant results until he started treating mold in the sinuses. He no longer pushes any detox methods at all.

Brewer does agree that someone in a moldy environment can get better by leaving the environment and that a good detox regimen can accelerate the time it takes to get better.

In my own case, I was told by Shoemaker I had the dreaded gene. For years I tried a variety of detox methods to no avail. I have improved a great deal during the five months I have done the Brewer protocol.

I am aware of some people who have improved with mold avoidance and detox. It is certainly doable to do both the Brewer protocol and mold detox.
 
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redaxe

Senior Member
Messages
230
Thankyou Ifish. The only thing I'm trying to make sense of is how the 'location effect' relates to mold in the sinus.

One would think that if the condition is an infection than location wouldn't really matter (so long as you weren't in a really moldy environment that has a high level of toxins & spores).
But it seems like that isn't actually the case. I moved out of the building that originally made me sick and over time I actually got worse. The only time I had a length respite was when I camped outdoors in a semi-arid region for about 3 weeks, but the symptoms completely returned in 1 night once I was re-exposed to a relatives house that had a mold & damp problem.
I think that what probably made things worse was that I was sleeping on my mattress that was in the original house and that has most likely collected a whole lot of spores and aerosols that are toxic to inhale.


I have one theory of what could be causing this - a phenomena known as toxin synergy

Anyone notice that with mycotoxins they are alcohol intolerant - that is they feel horrible hangovers from having even the equivalent of 1 standard drink? That is an example of a toxin synergy between alcohol (which is a mycotoxin itself) and other biotoxins. Other well known toxin synergies are practised by recreational drug users that combine different drugs to get stronger effects...

Toxin synergy has also been discussed in the available literature on Water Damaged Buildings.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2012/312836/
A Water-Damaged Home and Health of Occupants: A Case Study
Jack Dwayne Thrasher,1 Michael R. Gray,2 Kaye H. Kilburn,3,4 Donald P. Dennis,5 and Archie Yu6

In conclusion, bacterial cultures identified potentially pathogenic Gram negative and positive bacteria. In addition, these bacteria are known to produce toxic secondary metabolites of which Valinomycin is a mitochondrial toxin and is synergistic with macrocyclic trichothecenes [3639]. Recently, several toxic bacterial metabolites have been demonstrated to cooccur with mycotoxins in moisture-damaged indoor environments [15].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23735874

From what I have been told if you're exposed to mold in a water damaged building it's very likely that there is more than just mold involved. You're also looking at a range of pathogenic bacteria that are producing biotoxins that are synergistic with mycotoxins as that case study mentions.
It could well be that for a patient with a mold sinus infection (and probably some other bacteria involved) that being in the desert happens to remove exposure to other toxins in buildings that have a synergy effect with the toxins being produced in the sinus.

I have been told by a fellow who tests the health of water damaged buildings that Streptomyces has a VOC toxin (basically a gas so it's inhaled from bad buildings) that permeabalises the blood-brain barrier and allows more toxins to enter the brain than normal.

Toxin synergy may also explain partly why symptoms & severity between patients can very so much. And remember that the RealTimeLabs test is only testing for Aflatoxins, Trichothecenes & Ochratoxins, there are likely to be far more biotoxins involved here.
 

psz

Messages
21
I've been thinking about this too.

My theory is that you don't get impacted directly by the mould spores, mycotoxins or bacteria you inhale, but rather by the reaction of the mould in your sinuses to these. The mould that colonises your sinuses might sense these and "think" that another organism is trying to compete for the same environmental niche and as a result releases a lot of mycotoxins - potentially way more than the amount actually inhaled. This is why mycotoxins exist in the first place as a competitive advantage.

This could explain why people with colonisation react badly to exposure while "normal" people don't.

I haven't researched this theory too much but it seems plausible. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.

Regards,
P
 

Forebearance

Senior Member
Messages
568
Location
Great Plains, US
Just to play devils advocate (I really like the theory and think its the cause of my issues)

What if people with CFS immune system is overburdened and can't detoxify so that they are exposed to minute sources of mold like everyone else except they can't detoxify as well?

I think this theory has been around for a while, trev343.
For example, I think that is why Rich Van K came up with his simplified methylation protocol.
It makes a lot of sense, but in practice it hasn't cured everyone to take things to detoxify. Although it has helped a lot of people and some people it's helped a great deal.
 

Forebearance

Senior Member
Messages
568
Location
Great Plains, US
I've been thinking about this too.

My theory is that you don't get impacted directly by the mould spores, mycotoxins or bacteria you inhale, but rather by the reaction of the mould in your sinuses to these. The mould that colonises your sinuses might sense these and "think" that another organism is trying to compete for the same environmental niche and as a result releases a lot of mycotoxins - potentially way more than the amount actually inhaled. This is why mycotoxins exist in the first place as a competitive advantage.

This could explain why people with colonisation react badly to exposure while "normal" people don't.

I haven't researched this theory too much but it seems plausible. Perhaps someone with more knowledge can comment.

Regards,
P

That's not a bad idea, psz!
Although the people who are sensitive to mold toxins, like me, can feel different symptoms in the presence of different kinds of mold toxins. So how to explain that?

Also, I've been thinking that if Dr. Brewer's treatment turns out to work on a lot of people, it could suggest that people can get ME/CFS by 1) having susceptible HLA-DR genes, and 2) having some kind of bad virus in a place with a lot of mold spores present. Maybe there's something about having a bad virus that allows mold to set up shop in a biofilm in the sinuses.
 
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Skiii

Senior Member
Messages
122
Just checking in. Thought I was tolerating the smaller dosage of amphoB ok... I get stuffy after but I can at least get through it. Until my detox symptoms came full force yesterday... got a headache that got worse with the day, then my old neck and shoulder pain started getting worse, then anxiety started to build until I was nearly at a full blown panic attack. I not an anxious person by nature, it was really unsettling.

I do have one tip to share though, chomping on ice cubes after doing the amphoB does help with the radiating tooth pain!
 

redaxe

Senior Member
Messages
230
My theory is that you don't get impacted directly by the mould spores, mycotoxins or bacteria you inhale, but rather by the reaction of the mould in your sinuses to these.

Interesting thoughts
I may well be wrong here but I've searched the literature (although not real thoroughly) and I can't find anything conclusive that says that Stachybotrys (which has a notorious reputation on these boards) is actually pathogenic - as in something that grows in the sinuses. Everything on it says it likes cellulose and there is no mention about human infections.
However Stachy does produce a lot of trichothecenes which are easily airborne and subsquently inhaled and absorbed into the body. So I do think that the environment does matter, especially if there is colonization of the sinus.

2 groups of mold that do colonise the sinuses are Aspergillus & Fusarium
Fusarium in fact does produce Trichothecenes as well so my suspicion is that people testing positive for trichothecenes may have Fusarium infections.
There is a bit of an assumption in some the literature that you have to be immunocompromised to get it- I'm not sure if that really holds true, considering that the mycotoxins from Fusarium does suppress the immune system.


As for Shoemakers HLA-DR genes there is something that doesn't make sense to me.
If the "dreaded genotype" is as severe as he says and it makes the body completely unable to handle mycotoxins then why wouldn't it be producing fatal effects from birth (well before people develop CFIDS) and why are some carriers of this genotype unaffected?
We are all exposed to & absorb mycotoxins continually in our diets, in the air etc so it doesn't really make sense to me although I do find his theories interesting.
 

Skiii

Senior Member
Messages
122
As for Shoemakers HLA-DR genes there is something that doesn't make sense to me.
If the "dreaded genotype" is as severe as he says and it makes the body completely unable to handle mycotoxins then why wouldn't it be producing fatal effects from birth (well before people develop CFIDS) and why are some carriers of this genotype unaffected?
We are all exposed to & absorb mycotoxins continually in our diets, in the air etc so it doesn't really make sense to me although I do find his theories interesting.

Redaxe, I did not have any of Shoemaker's genes tested. My history fits perfectly with Brewer's hypothesis, and since you can directly test for mycotoxins now, my doctor just had me do that. I responded very well to CSM and charcoal, and now am proving the sinus colonization by having so much die-off with the amphoB. The only gene testing he did was for the MTHFR, and I am double homozygous, so we know I don't methylate/detox well.

Shoemaker addressed this in one of his FAQ volumes that I purchased. Basically what he said is that they've seen that there is almost always some antecedent inflammatory illness that changes the expression of the gene. I found this very interesting as I, myself, do not have Lyme and yet had mononucleosis when I was 7 years old. Here's his full answer:

"How long does exposure to water-damaged buildings have to occur before an
individual develops CIRS?


This question remains one of the most important in this entire field of medicine. We
know that people with HLA susceptibility and CIRS following exposure to water-
damaged buildings have that HLA from birth. What accounts for them developing a
CIRS illness, say in their 20’s but not in their teens and not in their early childhood?
We have attempted to answer this question by following people prospectively with
known susceptible HLA haplotypes but no illness. What we have seen repeatedly is that
an antecedent inflammatory illness, such as mononucleosis, Lyme disease, Coxsackie of
ECHO virus infections, intense inflammatory lung responses and unusual conditions such
as Kawasaki disease invariably occurs. These inflammatory responses predispose an
individual to have a change in antigen presentation such that an HLA that is “doing well,”
protecting an individual against a moldy building, no longer does so.
Please take a look at some of the HLA questions on this list to see further discussion of
HLA structure and antigen presentation.
The bottom line is that it makes sense for people to have an idea of what is their HLA,
what is their baseline C4a and TGF beta-1 are and to monitor MSH levels before and
after significant illnesses if the HLA is mold susceptible. Knowledge here is power. If no
illness develops then having the HLA becomes of no benefit. But if HLA is mold
susceptible and an intense illness occurs, follow MSH. When MSH falls, the HLA is
likely to be “primed,” increasing risk of acquisition of uncontrolled inflammatory illness.
If we have a CIRS in the early stage, and using the above approach makes detection easy,
the illness is far easier to treat early in the course then later."
 
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Messages
27
Location
Wilmington, North Carolina

Soundthealarm21

Senior Member
Messages
420
Location
Dallas, TX
So I saw my doctor today and we discussed our next steps.

We are going to do hyperbaric oxygen therapy 2x Day for 180 minutes total and then see how that is making me feel. If that is not significant progress we are going to add Dr. Brewer's chelating px and ampho B. At the moment we are trying to see if we can go without the nasal sprays because of the pain and herxing they cause.

If my derealization and brain fog isn't completely healed by the time all of the toxin is out we will do a low dose stimulant (maybe vyvanse) and mitochondrial supplements (like that study happening at Stanford). Nothing has helped my derealization like taking adderall to study before I fell ill a couple of years ago.

Will keep everyone updated.
 
Messages
52
@Skiii great post.

Has anyone had experience taking this test?

https://www.chronicneurotoxins.com/prod_services/vcs_cardtest.cfm (shoemaker's paid test)

compared to

http://vcstest.com/

I heard the free one is much easier to pass. Shoemakers statsistics show that mold cases fail 96% compared to 2% for controls is undeniable. source (http://www.survivingmold.com/docs/Resources/Shoemaker Papers/NTT6154_ciguatera_11_10.pdf)
I took Shoemaker paid test 3 times - failed first two times , passed the third time. I have not done the other test you mentioned.
 

cigana

Senior Member
Messages
1,095
Location
UK
I falied the VCS test the first 2 times and passed the 3rd time. During that period I have taken some ninders (eg cholestyramine).