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Fecal Transplants

JT1024

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
Massachusetts
Enterococcus is normal flora in the gut http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Enterococcus unless it is Vancomycin resistant. Enterococcus (aka VRE) is a Group D streptococcus. This is often "nosocomial" (hospital/nursing home/rehab) aquired.

Just found this: http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

  • Streptococcus. This ferments to produce large amounts of lactic acid. This may give a tendency to acidosis. Lactic acid is metabolised in the liver by lactate dehydrogenase, so high levels of this may indicate bowel overgrowth with streptococcus. Fermentation produces two isomers of lactic acid, namely L-lactate and D-lactate. It is D-lactate which is the problem, the body cannot metabolise this, it accumulates in mitochondria and inhibits them. One can measure D lactate in the blood stream.
Elph68....Any contribution to our collective knowledge is a great help! Thanks for your post. There is so much to learn and for me, too little time.
I am fortunate (??) to still work full time. It is a huge challenge for me but I try to keep up with new developments.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Enterococcus is normal flora in the gut http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Enterococcus unless it is Vancomycin resistant. Enterococcus (aka VRE) is a Group D streptococcus. This is often "nosocomial" (hospital/nursing home/rehab) aquired.

Just found this: http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

  • Streptococcus. This ferments to produce large amounts of lactic acid. This may give a tendency to acidosis. Lactic acid is metabolised in the liver by lactate dehydrogenase, so high levels of this may indicate bowel overgrowth with streptococcus. Fermentation produces two isomers of lactic acid, namely L-lactate and D-lactate. It is D-lactate which is the problem, the body cannot metabolise this, it accumulates in mitochondria and inhibits them. One can measure D lactate in the blood stream.
Elph68....Any contribution to our collective knowledge is a great help! Thanks for your post. There is so much to learn and for me, too little time.

I am fortunate (??) to still work full time. It is a huge challenge for me but I try to keep up with new developments.


Hi JT, studies have shown that over over 60% of enterococcus strains are now pathogenic and have slipped right under the medical professionals radar .... If you stop by my website www.superbugskill.com I have a pile of papers up there that relate directly to enterococcus/streptococcus and how they cause auto-immune responses that attack internal organs, the thyroid, kidneys, liver, the nervous system, joints etc. .... all scientifically verified. They are prolific lactic acid producers, damage/kill mucus membrane cells, and are multi drug resistant .... Their outer shell is an exotoxin that causes severe inflammation ...... They are considered normal flora so they do not show up in commercial tests. Viridans Strep are the same .......
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Do you have a link for the Melbourne University/streptoccocci/leaky gut finding ? Google didn't produce a result.

You need to search for Dr Henry Butt ..... They are in the process of completing their CFS research, Dr Butt has quite a few papers that he has published leading up to this latest research.
 

tyson oberle

Senior Member
Messages
210
Location
tampa, florida
The perfect donor is a 3 year old ....
Hi Elph68,
Are you serious that a 3 year old would be a good donor? I have read that children should be avoided as donors. My next question: Do you think I could potentially use a donor that drinks beer on weekends (he gets a little drunk, but not too much), he eats processed breakfast cereal with conventional supermarket milk and he drinks a little soda sometimes? He is about 38 years old, he is strong, healthy, and has tons of energy. He is willing to help and he lives on the same property as I do, so it would be very convenient. He is willing to do whatever tests I need for him to do. What do you think?
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
You need to search for Dr Henry Butt ..... They are in the process of completing their CFS research, Dr Butt has quite a few papers that he has published leading up to this latest research.


Hi elph, what is the CDD s opinion of candida? Do they treat it? Do they and yourself think it may be a factor?
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hi elph, what is the CDD s opinion of candida? Do they treat it? Do they and yourself think it may be a factor?

Mate, I really don't know about candida .... I don't show it anywhere in me, so I haven't looked at it .....

Does it produce an inflammatory response?? If candida causes an increase in interleukin 6 or 8 (or any other pro-inflammatory cytokines), then it is not too big a stretch to say that it does .....

My wife struggled with it a bit for a while ...... CDD research is mainly focusing on IBS & IBD and clostridium difficile, MAPS, fusobacterium varium etc., it is the Melbourne Uni that is researching the cause of CFS.

It is just fortunate that by curing your IBS, it seems to put CFS into remission ..... which is in line with what Dr Henry Butt is saying.
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
Hi Elph68,
Are you serious that a 3 year old would be a good donor? I have read that children should be avoided as donors. My next question: Do you think I could potentially use a donor that drinks beer on weekends (he gets a little drunk, but not too much), he eats processed breakfast cereal with conventional supermarket milk and he drinks a little soda sometimes? He is about 38 years old, he is strong, healthy, and has tons of energy. He is willing to help and he lives on the same property as I do, so it would be very convenient. He is willing to do whatever tests I need for him to do. What do you think?

Hi Tyson,

Why would you not use a child?? They have the flora they were born with that has not been disrupted with antibiotics, they have plenty of energy and have had minimal exposure to toxins .... I am trying to find the interview where it was stated about the 3 year old ...

The real success in FMT is the removal of the pathogens before the infusion, and the complete clearing of the bowel .... I have that many papers here, I did have a protocol put out by CDD that said what the donor had to do before the donation.... At the very least fore a week, no sugars or carbs, plenty of fibre and vegies and lean protein (fish would be ideal) ....

I am very big on collaboration, and doing things at home doesn't change the system .... People power changes the system and the system is wrong .... The doctors diagnosis is wrong and the way we are treated is wrong .... Get some mates together and start making a rukus ..... get the science together and write to doctors asking them to treat a heap of you .... find a wealthy person who has IBS and get them to fund a study ..... Do a full fecal analysis and identify what is causing the 'disbyosis' and then hit the doctors hard .... get 3 months of antibiotics to treat the bowel infection ..... then FMT ....

Put it simply, our mucous membranes are eyes, nose, mouth, urinary tract, genital tract, skin and colon .... when anything other than the colon is inflamed it is usually due to an infection and is treated, yet an inflamed colon is 'not treatable' .... BS!

Disbyosis and leaky gut = gut infection ..... Our Aussie clinic CDD will do the initial consultations over the phone .....

I reckon we let the academics argue over what is happening neurologically ..... I reckon we outa just fight to have our IBS fixed (please don't crucify me) because it is a gut infection. If everybody just fought that battle, we may just win the war.

As for your mate, checks for Hep, hiv, known pathogens, full bloods, urine and a full fecal test also, at the very least ..... Maybe we should form a sub group and put together a letter/presentation to canvass doctors with .....

Cheers.
 

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
Henry Butt. always think its funny when someones name reflects what they do. yes deep down im still a child!
great info tho elph!!! I cant wait to see how it all goes!!!
gooo aussies you buggers! CDD looks like a busy researching place!!!! cracker!
 

Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
make sure you use a child who has healthy parents and was breast fed! I would choose one who grew up on a farm

not to make children sound like cattle! lol
 

Fogbuster

Senior Member
Messages
269
@
Hi everyone,

If anyone is looking for a clinic that will perform fecal transplants, there is one in Tampa, Florida. See http://www.rdsinfusions.com/about-2

Here is more information they sent me:

MT, also known as human probiotic infusion, bacteriotherapy, and fecal transplant, is a powerful infusion of healthy colonic flora which has been used to treat antibiotic-resistant C difficile infections, ulcerative colitis, and chronic constipation (IBS-C). It may also be indicated for certain patients with Crohn’s disease, IBS-D, and possibly even some autoimmune disease (such as multiple sclerosis and ITP.) We would need to set you up for a phone consultation with Dr. Shepard to make sure that you are a good candidate. The cost of that consultation is $300.00 and that fee would be deducted from the total cost of the transplant if you proceed with the FMT. We do have patients that are from out of state or out of town. Normally they are scheduled for three treatments three days in a row, however not all patients are the same. That would be something that Dr. Shepard would discuss with you in the consultation.

On the flip-side, here is an email that another physician who performs FMT sent me:

My experience with fecal transplant has been (almost) entirely limited to C difficile infection. C diff is pretty simple in that it results from derangement/inadequacy in the normal bacterial flora in the colon (usually caused by antibiotics). There are hundreds of case reports in the medical literature (and a recent clinical trial) suggesting that it really does work by replacing the missing (good) bacteria which then suppress the C diff.

As for indications further afield, such as IBD, IBS, “leaky gut,” MS, chronic fatigue, autoimmune disease etc. There is (almost) no literature to support using FMT to treat these conditions. Though many of these diseases may be associated with derangement in the gut microbiome, we certainly do not know enough about what specifically we would need to alter in these patients or how to best accomplish that. Certainly, attempts to manipulate the gut microbiome via FMT can have unintended adverse consequences. Besides the obvious risks (transmission of infection), I am concerned that the replacement of this highly complex whole community of microorganisms may have incompletely understood effects which would put patients at risk for other conditions (autoimmune disease, neurologic disease, colon cancer). I have no doubts that as we learn more about the gut microbiome we will discover manipulations (via FMT or probiotics) which may have therapeutic benefits for some of these patients. However, I definitely do not feel comfortable offering FMT as a treatment for conditions outside of C difficile at this time.

Furthermore, I am restricted by both my own institution and the federal government (FDA requires an investigational new drug application or "IND") from doing so. Given the tremendous energy and time I am focused on conducting the clinical trial in C. diff, embarking on another IND application is truly impossible for me at this time. Perhaps when the FMT for C diff study data is available the FDA will be more open to applications to study FMT as a treatment for other disorders and will have streamlined the process.

Personally, I would be quite willing to do FMT despite the "yuck" factor, but I would not take the chance of the risks this doctor mentions.

Drew
Hi @drewmaster, just out of interest, do you often send questions to top doctors and get a response?

Jamie
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
By the way, I joined an FMT group on Facebook, and there is a very wide range of issues people are confronting -- with FMT being a therapy they are either exploring, or have tried, or are in the process of trying. Results I have seen there so far are mixed. Some folks are really seeing improvements (such as w. C. Diff), usually with few treatments.

People with long term issues like Ulcerative Colitis, etc. are having more mixed results, and some seem to improve during the treatments but may then backslide afterwards. There is a lot of discussion of how to screen donors (usually a relative that lives with them), where are doctors who will support you if you try to do this at home, etc.

So as mentioned above it is still very early days for the approach. But I still find it quit intriguing and worth my limited time and attention to continue to track.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
By the way, I joined an FMT group on Facebook, and there is a very wide range of issues people are confronting -- with FMT being a therapy they are either exploring, or have tried, or are in the process of trying. Results I have seen there so far are mixed. Some folks are really seeing improvements (such as w. C. Diff), usually with few treatments.

People with long term issues like Ulcerative Colitis, etc. are having more mixed results, and some seem to improve during the treatments but may then backslide afterwards. There is a lot of discussion of how to screen donors (usually a relative that lives with them), where are doctors who will support you if you try to do this at home, etc.

So as mentioned above it is still very early days for the approach. But I still find it quit intriguing and worth my limited time and attention to continue to track.

Does anyone on the forum mention the new fecal capsules?
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
Does anyone on the forum mention the new fecal capsules?
I can't recall if they mentioned that article that was posted here (research on capsules) but there are several there who make their own by freezing the donated sample, then cutting it up and inserting it into capsules. Some also have coated those with bee's wax as a sort of poor-man's enteric coating (to get it into the small intestine before it gets digested). Crafty humans!
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
I can't recall if they mentioned that article that was posted here (research on capsules) but there are several there who make their own by freezing the donated sample, then cutting it up and inserting it into capsules. Some also have coated those with bee's wax as a sort of poor-man's enteric coating (to get it into the small intestine before it gets digested). Crafty humans!

And they feel it helps?
 

Lala

Senior Member
Messages
331
Location
EU
How could be the microflora saved when sample is frozen? That does not make any sense.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
How could be the microflora saved when sample is frozen? That does not make any sense.
Apparently it does just fine frozen -- but again I'm neither an MD nor a scientist so I'm only going on their anecdotal reports.

@knackers323 yes they do feel it helps, but again what is interesting to note is that every one is reporting different outcomes and they are all dealing with such a wide variety of issues it's hard to draw any direct conclusions -- other than it clearly helping with C. Diff.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
The idea of having this done scares the crap out of me.:D :redface: I'll leave it for someone else to try the poopsicle tx.

I mean no disrespect to the topic. I know it's a serious line of inquiry but I was inspired by the first few pages of the thread ~ some comments of which I found rather amusing. Hopefully someone very brave will have something more informative to post from personal experience in the future.

If it does prove effective I'm going to have to do some serious mental ju jit su.
 

August59

Daughters High School Graduation
Messages
1,617
Location
Upstate SC, USA
It has probably been mentioned, but there is a company that is making a "Poo pill". I'm not sure how good it would be.