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Head clears when body fighting infection! Please help!

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
I continue to think this is an important clue.

When I get a cold (v. rare) I feel better. But I dont get a huge fever usually.
But when I had a stomach bug a couple of years ago I had a high temperature and felt truely awful.
My prostaglandin is constantly very high, which I understand is responsible for inducing fever.
So it is a puzzle I don't understand yet.
 
Messages
83
Thanks for the link...

Have you tried liposomal Glutathione?

I have tried alot of the supplements mentioned on the page but never noticed any benefit, perhaps I need to take a few of them at once.

I am thinking that I have some kind of chronic infection i.e candida which is being held at bay via TH2 response. This is then causing me adrenal problems and giving me brain fog etc..

I have tried anti fungal diets and supplements in the past with little benefit
I am now thinking perhaps something like GcMAF might be worth a try to kill off any infection I may have. I have had tests for bacteria fungus etc but nothing showed up however I do get symptoms i.e indigestion, itching, gas etc

I feel like i'm going round in circles but surely if I feel so much better when sick then this avenue must be worth persuing?

Also thinking of taking Low dose naltrexone but not sure if that is a Th1 stimulant or Th2? Is it worth combining GcMaf and LDN?

Have you done any immune testing? Did everything come out normal ?
 
Messages
17
Hi Mason

Sorry for the late comment.

Nope never tried liposomal but been reading about it, so they are available as a cream and oral fluid and supposed to be more effective.

I dont know everything but I do know what worked for me, a few years ago I cut back all caffein (everything) and all alcohol and it helped me tremendendeously in a way that I never really got any worse, so I kept it at bay. I was obviously still sick but I didnt have to get any medication or see doctors cause of a

We are all different what works for me might not work for you, in my case I have also tried anti candida supplements, and that was just a few weeks back, it gave me negative symptoms with no positive. Which after stopping disappeared and more or less came back when I took another round.

My stomach have always felt inflammated so I tried some stomach enzymes 2 months ago which are supposed to better absorb food and alike and that also gave me negative symptoms with no positive, so that didn't got me anywhere either.

Last thing I tried out is glutathione from thursday last week, taking small doses 2-3 times per day and I can say something is happening both back and forth and not so bad that I would want to quit it and enough good to keep doing it.

Im talking more about my glutathione experience here. Im going to update it soon with more info.

Not sure about you, but I've done my gene testing on 23andme, it showed some "indications" that my stomach isnt good and as you know everything in life goes through our stomach, even love LOL.

So when I stopped with caffein and alcohol it was all part of the plan cause I had to face one thing, it wasnt good for me.

Is there some food or drinks that you are extra sensitive too ?

I've done an amino acid test that showed I was a bit too low in a few specific ones but taking them through a supplement didnt really get me anywhere no pros nor cons.

I knew nothing about GcMAF before you posted it so hard for me to say anything about it. Do you need a doctor to prescribe it ? It isnt available as a supplement?

When you tried glutathione, what brands did you try and what happened ?

Low dose naltrexone

Never tried naltrexone but read it could be potent for some. But I did a search for you and looks like it could affect th1 and th2.

http://www.elaine-moore.com/Article...ohnsandOtherAIDiseases/tabid/195/Default.aspx



I wouldnt start with combining naltrexone and GcMaf instead test them one at a time first. If nothing bad comes out of it then maybe but I know too little about them.

That's all for now.


Azrael,

Have you considered that the negative experiences your having with candida supplements may be die off?

I have tried many anti candid supplements from diflucan, MMS, nystatin, Lufeneron to herbal antifungals and not really noticed anything. To be honest I would prefer to feel a negative reaction as then I would know I was on the right track.

I feel I have some hidden infection which is messing with my immune system perhaps making me Th2 dominant.
My last Organic Oat test came out pretty normal but I have high Arabinose which is a marker for yeast however my stool sample came back o.k. Food sensitivity test came back normal too.

I have just bought some more supplements - Isoprinosine, transfer factor, APO Lactoferrin and some probiotic
I took 1000mg of Isoprinosine an hour ago so will see what happens.

The glutathione I tried is

http://www.abundanceandhealth.co.uk...on-labs.aspx?gclid=CNfwjvqMncICFSoewwodkpAAag

Its not cheap and I never really noticed anything from it but perhaps I don't need it. The only negative thing about it was I am sure it made my temples thinner, although I get that from all sulphur supplements.

The GcMAF can be bought without a prescription from here

https://www.gcmaf.eu/

Very expensive and needs to be injected or through nasal spray - not going to try this yet

I think Naltrexone may be worth a try too

I looked at immune testing and will give it a try next if these Th1 stimulating supplements don't work.
 
Messages
11
"The initial stage, acute onset, may appear symptomatically as a viral illness, with flu-like symptoms (sore throat, low fever,etc.) During this stage, RNase L and sed rate will be elevated. After this stage, the patient enters into what Dr. Cheney calls autointoxication. The body becomes overloaded, particularly in the liver, with toxins that are produced by excess RNase L activity, and a second set of symptoms emerges: pain, "brain fog", weakness, gut problems. RNase L levels decline, as does sed rate, which is now very low. Finally the body enters the third stage in which the hypothalamus, which has now been affected by autointoxication, becomes dysregulated, affecting the autonomic nervous system. This is the stage that produces dysautonomia, POTS and other problems related to homeostatis." abstract from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: A treatment Guide, 2nd Ed by Erica Verrillo
 
Messages
11
I continue to think this is an important clue.

When I get a cold (v. rare) I feel better. But I dont get a huge fever usually.
But when I had a stomach bug a couple of years ago I had a high temperature and felt truely awful.
My prostaglandin is constantly very high, which I understand is responsible for inducing fever.
So it is a puzzle I don't understand yet.

It's true that prostaglandins are involved in inflammation, and pain produced by inflammation.. which is why NSAID's are prescribed for certain types of symptoms. However prostaglandins in the mucosa lining (eg. the stomach, GI tract) also have a protective function. Blocking the enzymes that produce these prostaglandins can cause stomach and GI symptoms, even wear down the lining and cause ulcers. Inflammation is always a cons V's pros game. The body needs to have inflammation, and it needs to have an immune response to protect itself. The problem with CFS/ME is this balance gets out of whack.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
It's true that prostaglandins are involved in inflammation, and pain produced by inflammation.. which is why NSAID's are prescribed for certain types of symptoms. However prostaglandins in the mucosa lining (eg. the stomach, GI tract) also have a protective function. Blocking the enzymes that produce these prostaglandins can cause stomach and GI symptoms, even wear down the lining and cause ulcers. Inflammation is always a cons V's pros game. The body needs to have inflammation, and it needs to have an immune response to protect itself. The problem with CFS/ME is this balance gets out of whack.

I agree. Though PGE2 and it's receptors also appear to have some negative effects in the GI tract too.
 
Messages
11
I agree. Though PGE2 and it's receptors also appear to have some negative effects in the GI tract too.
yep.. pain medication works by blocking the production of prostaglandins. Pain and inflammation can be a negative affect. but you still want them to do their job or you get other health problems. ;)
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
yep.. pain medication works by blocking the production of prostaglandins. Pain and inflammation can be a negative affect. but you still want them to do their job or you get other health problems. ;)
That's true, but they are also implicated in The cause of IBDs and colorectal cancer. And some pathogens are known to deliberately promote PGE2 synthesis, so it's not clear cut. I have chronically high PGE2 but little pain. PGE2 has lots of different effects depending on the different receptors it interacts with and different circumstances.
 
Messages
11
ok.. good. sounds like you have done some research and you are aware of your own body. I wasn't actually arguing with you. good luck with solving your health issues. ;)
 

DanME

Senior Member
Messages
289
Hi,

I have exactly the same response. A cold (even without fever) works wonders on me. I feel so much better. Like my true old self. Brain fog disappears, I am talkative and funny again, my vision becomes clear, I feel much stronger emotions (in a good way), my OI nearly disappears, I like to walk around and the world feels real and palpable again.
Though I feel the cold. I have headaches, a sore throat, a running nose, feel a bit dizzy. But it is heaven in comparison to ME. It feels like a completely different kind of being sick. A good kind.

As others have said, it is a quite common phenomenon with ME patients, many already described.

So what happens? I think, nobody knows. I don't believe the body is suddenly able to fight a hidden infection. The old TH1 TH2 theory is a bit out of date. My best guess is, it has to to with cytokines, hormones and autonomic signalling. Like a reset of the brain stem (which is mostly responsible for 'awakeness'), the thalamus and the hypothalamus (the master of the autonomous system and the trigger system for fever). The infections trigger some kind of hormone and cytokine shift. Maybe this resets Microglia in the brain? Or some important brain structures?

The only thing, which truly diminishs my ME symptoms is a cold or another (prob) viral infection and sleep deprivation. After a night with only a couple of hours of sleep I feel much better. The effect is not as huge like with the infections, but it is def there. Sleep deprivation is a method to counter depression. It increases serotonin in the brain stem as far as I remember. So again. Maybe better signalling in the brain stem leads to less symptoms?

One thing. It makes me hopeful. Because it means nothing is fundamentally broken and maybe one day we have something to mimick this effect.
 
Messages
17
Hi,

I have exactly the same response. A cold (even without fever) works wonders on me. I feel so much better. Like my true old self. Brain fog disappears, I am talkative and funny again, my vision becomes clear, I feel much stronger emotions (in a good way), my OI nearly disappears, I like to walk around and the world feels real and palpable again.
Though I feel the cold. I have headaches, a sore throat, a running nose, feel a bit dizzy. But it is heaven in comparison to ME. It feels like a completely different kind of being sick. A good kind.

As others have said, it is a quite common phenomenon with ME patients, many already described.

So what happens? I think, nobody knows. I don't believe the body is suddenly able to fight a hidden infection. The old TH1 TH2 theory is a bit out of date. My best guess is, it has to to with cytokines, hormones and autonomic signalling. Like a reset of the brain stem (which is mostly responsible for 'awakeness'), the thalamus and the hypothalamus (the master of the autonomous system and the trigger system for fever). The infections trigger some kind of hormone and cytokine shift. Maybe this resets Microglia in the brain? Or some important brain structures?

The only thing, which truly diminishs my ME symptoms is a cold or another (prob) viral infection and sleep deprivation. After a night with only a couple of hours of sleep I feel much better. The effect is not as huge like with the infections, but it is def there. Sleep deprivation is a method to counter depression. It increases serotonin in the brain stem as far as I remember. So again. Maybe better signalling in the brain stem leads to less symptoms?

One thing. It makes me hopeful. Because it means nothing is fundamentally broken and maybe one day we have something to mimick this effect.

I don't have ME but I seem to share this mystery.

I'm not sure where to go from here, I was excited to think that by stimulating Th1 I could somehow replicate whats happening to me when i'm sick.

I have tried taking isoprinosine but even at 1000mg per day I felt more depressed.
I am now trying Transfer Factor and some other Th1 stimulating supplements but i'm not hopeful

When I get a cold etc the good effects come on almost instantly - I feel bad for the 1st day then I feel great. So would Th1 supplements work that quickly or does it take time to switch from Th2 to Th1 with supplements?

Reasons not to think its Th1 -

I rarely get colds etc - maybe twice a year, this indicates to me that my immune system is working o.k.

Th1 deals with Yeast, viruses etc so if I have yeast issues then Th1 would be permanently activated. This would then maybe cause my adrenal problems as my body is worn out from constantly fighting chronic infection.

I also feel better with lack of sleep or even after a few beers the night before - surely this is nothing to do with the immune system.

It kind of feels like increased cortisol. I do suffer from low cortisol symptoms in the afternoon, I can feel anxious and I find it hard to focus my eyes. This doesn't happen when i'm sick.

This last week or so my previous infection has worn off and i'm back to my old draining self, when I was feeling so much better I arranged lots of social things and booked in lots of work - not sure I can face it now!
 
Messages
17
Just had my Nutreval test results back and the main thing thats shown up is very low Vitamin D

Thats interested me as I believe Vitamin D promotes Th2 immune response.

The more i'm looking into it the more I think my problems are from an over active Th1.
I have chronic dandruff and I think this is linked with Th1

What I can't understand is why I feel better when sick as surely that would mean my Th1 is working even harder.
I do rarely get sick perhaps once every year or so which indicates Th1 is working o.k.

Is it possible for Th2 to be making me feel better when sick? When I say get sick sometimes I will feel great for 2 weeks with no symptoms of cold or virus and wonder whats making me feel so great then the last couple of days be a bit mucousy indicating my body was fighting something.

Has anyone else who feels better with a cold etc noticed low Vitamin D levels?
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
The only thing, which truly diminishs my ME symptoms is a cold or another (prob) viral infection and sleep deprivation. After a night with only a couple of hours of sleep I feel much better. The effect is not as huge like with the infections, but it is def there. Sleep deprivation is a method to counter depression. It increases serotonin in the brain stem as far as I remember. So again. Maybe better signalling in the brain stem leads to less symptoms?

The question is if sleep deprivation really improves health or if it just can sedates you or numbs you so that you feel subjectively better. Narcotics or drugs can do the same but they surely don't lead to improved health.

Still it would be interesting to know why sleep deprivation would improve symptoms? I think that increasing serotonin in the brain theory could be BS it reminds me of the "serotonin the cause of everything" hype.

i think that it has been said that sleep deprivation actually depresses your immune system, not sure if this is happens to a significant extent. it probably does cause some mild hormonal changes (increased cortisol etc.) maybe some cytokine changes, then it surely changes your brain activity.

How does that explain improvements of ME symptoms?
 

Adster

Senior Member
Messages
600
Location
Australia
@mason I experience the same thing when I catch a head cold. I'm wondering if it is mast cell related - perhaps the head cold changes the mast cell response somehow. Do you think you have mast cell issues? I also have low vit D but react badly to supplementation of it. I have a confirm Mannose Binding Lectin deficiency, but am unsure what effect that is having on my health.
 

acer2000

Senior Member
Messages
818
I have noticed this also. Although it depends on the type of infection I have. I had the "flu" last year (actual influenza) and it just made me feel worse. This year I had a coronavirus (conformed by a throat swab) and my head felt clearer leading up to the sore throat/chest/nasal symptoms, then following the resolution of those symptoms I felt worse for a while.
 
Messages
17
@Adster Not sure about Mast Cell issues - here is a good website

http://geneticgenie.org/blog/2013/0...-chronic-illness-and-its-role-in-methylation/

Lectins promote Th2 Response so perhaps if your low you may be Th1 dominant. What dose of Vitamin D were you taking and were you taking Magnesium and Vitamin K2?

I have been on a high does of Vitamin D3 (30,000iu per day for 5 days now and do feel a bit better - may be placebo as its still quite early.

I do have a VDR BSM TT mutation which means I need more Vit D than most.

Going to keep taking 30,000 iu for another week then drop down to 10,000iu per day and get levels retested in a few months.