High sarcosine?

[dbkita]

Just got back a both a serum and urine amino acid profile.

One of the results was very high urine sarcosine 70.3 (0.3-27.3) and high plasma sarcosine 6.3 (0.0-4.0). But my urine and plasma glycine levels are normal. Moreover my plasma methionine levels are 33.6 (0-41). My urine methionine levels were middle of the range more or less (though urine is not considered as useful as plasma for methionine).

As per this reference http://www.metametrixinstitute.org/file.axd?file=2008/12/Page-234.pdf

I am taking 100 mg of b2 a day and my iron levels have been fine (both serum and ferritin) for some time now. So unless there is a depletion of THF the sarcosine to glycine reaction should be open and clear.

But as I said my methionine levels are high normal. Then again my homocysteine is a 10.0.

On the other hand maybe my SAMe / SAH ratio is too high and the Glycine N-methyltransferase enzyme is working over time and trying to drive the equilibrium gradient backwards.

As I said though my glycine levels are heart of the range even despite me supplementing 8-10 grams at bed time. Also I should point out I ingest a lot of protein each day (like 240 grams / day).

So I am not sure what to make of this.

I was also high normal to slightly elevated in BCAAs which would fit my catabolic issues.
Amino-adipic acid was also high but that may be due to high normal lysine and my taking high amounts of B3 (500 mg early and 250 mg at bedtime). I wonder if a possible high SAM / SAH ratio is the reason why I like the niacinamide?

Anyways let me know your thoughts.

I wonder if it time to get a HDRI methylation panel and find out which side of the 8-ball I am right now. Anyone have any other methylation panels they prefer? I had a NutraEval a couple of years ago which was useful for some things but not particularly for methylation / folate cycle from what I could tell.

Thanks.

 

[Crux]

Hi dbkita;
Uh, I know nothing, but here's what the Genova Diagnostics folks write about these test results. Here's a link to a 2008 interpretive guide:
http://www.gdx.net/core/interpretive-guides/Amino-Acids-Interp-Guide.pdf

Good Thoughts for you.
( Isn't this a kooky circle, with kinks?)

 

[dbkita]

Thanks yeah I saw that. I am having the tests repeated but morning fasting pre methylation support. My doctor agrees based on my other markers that if the sarcosine is normal than this in fact represents a strong shift up in activity of glycine-N-methyltransferase in an attempt to lower my SAMe/SAH ratio. Or the sarcosine remains high and I have a methyl trap going despite taking 5000 mcg of active B12s. So we will. My doctor already agreed to a HDRI test which would be definitive.

 

[dbkita]

Ok I guess I will have to untangle this on my own.

 

[BFG]

I recently did the NutrEval test and my results came out with high sarcosine also. My alpha aminoadipic acid was also elevated. My results are here if you wanted to take a look. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-2100-gi-effects-results.24206/#post-370714

From what I read so far I think this means a folate deficiency.Have you tested your (FIGlu)Formiminoglutamic Acid ? That is another indication of folate depletion.

I am also taking 5000 mcg of jarrow methyl b12 and only stopped 2 days before the nutreval test. I wonder if this can cause the depleted folate?

 

[aaron_c]

Hi @dbkita

Did you ever come to a conclusion as to what was happening with your glycine and sarcosine? As you may know, Rich Van K thought it was not uncommon for glycine to be low in PWME, but I can't seem to find out why that would be...or at least why it would be lower than cysteine and glutamic acid (which, along with glycine, are necessary to make glutathione). Are you aware of any theories that might explain this?

 

[Tunguska]

I was also curious about this.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/25/1_MeetingAbstracts/528.2

(The FASEB Journal. 2011;25:528.2)
© 2011 FASEB
528.2
Dietary glycine supplementation mimics lifespan extension by dietary methionine restriction in Fisher 344 rats
Joel Brind1,2, Virginia Malloy2, Ines Augie2, Nicholas Caliendo2, Joseph H Vogelman2, Jay A. Zimmerman2,3 and Norman Orentreich2
1 Natural Sciences, Baruch College, City University of New York, New York, NY
2 Orentreich Foundation for the Advancement of Science, Inc., Cold Spring-on-Hudson, NY
3 Biology, St. John’s University, Queens, NY

Dietary methionine (Met) restriction (MR) extends lifespan in rodents by 30–40% and inhibits growth. Since glycine is the vehicle for hepatic clearance of excess Met via glycine N-methyltransferase (GNMT), we hypothesized that dietary glycine supplementation (GS) might produce biochemical and endocrine changes similar to MR and also extend lifespan. Seven-week-old male Fisher 344 rats were fed diets containing 0.43% Met/2.3% glycine (control fed; CF) or 0.43% Met/4%, 8% or 12% glycine until natural death. In 8% or 12% GS rats, median lifespan increased from 88 weeks (w) to 113 w, and maximum lifespan increased from 91 w to 119 w v CF. Body growth reduction was less dramatic, and not even significant in the 8% GS group. Dose-dependent reductions in several serum markers were also observed. Long-term (50 w) 12% GS resulted in reductions in mean (±SD) fasting glucose (158 ± 13 v 179 ± 46 mg/dL), insulin (0.7 ± 0.4 v 0.8 ± 0.3 ng/mL), IGF-1 (1082 ± 128 v 1407 ± 142 ng/mL) and triglyceride (113 ± 31 v 221 ± 56 mg/dL) levels compared to CF. Adiponectin, which increases with MR, did not change in GS after 12 w on diet. We propose that more efficient Met clearance via GNMT with GS could be reducing chronic Met toxicity due to rogue methylations from chronic excess methylation capacity or oxidative stress from generation of toxic by-products such as formaldehyde. This project received no outside funding.

With 240g of protein no doubt having substantial methionine, and high glycine intake, doesn't that overload GNMT enough to make a bunch of sarcosine, to be expected?


Also vitamin A (retinyl palmitate, which I took/take, dunno about you): http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ed-depression-isotretinoin.12117/#post-206042

Rats were fed a control (10% casein + 0.3% L-methionine) diet and orally given retinyl palmitate (RP), CRA, ATRA or vehicle daily for 10 d. RP, CRA and ATRA elevated hepatic GNMT activity 32, 74 and 124%, respectively

This is interesting in two ways for me. I need high glycine for structural problems but need to make sure it's not contributing to other issues. Same for vit A (on top of accutane concerns).

Second, sarcosine is a supp used for schizophrenia and it helps as a stand-alone supplement, wonder if can't exploit this - can the sarcosine made from GNMT end up at NMDA receptors in the brain? in high enough quantities? Reworded, why is (or would... be) high sarcosine undesirable?