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Holgate - 'Encouraging new ideas for ME/CFS research'

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
...the need to recognise that what causes CFS/ME might be different to what maintains it; and the need to understand that diseases may not necessarily be either biological or psychological but may, in fact, be both.

:meh:

Part of what I hear, I like, the other part, I don't like. So I remain on the fence, cautiously hopeful.

Similar position here. Though after more than 3 decades of this crap I don't have many more false starts and dashed hopes left in me.

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I welcome Prof Edwards comment about the deafening silence from the medical research community.

At both the individual and the institutional level that community must explicitly acknowledge that, generally speaking, the existing science in this area of medicine is hopelessly inadequate, grotesquely compromised, and often recklessly applied, and that medicine has to do a lot better, starting immediately.

We patients cannot do it on our own, no matter how organised and dedicated we are, no matter how legitimate our case nor how well we argue it. The political forces lined up against us, both within and without the medical profession, are just too powerful and entrenched. We need serious help, and it has to come primarily and clearly from within medical science itself.

Apart from any other reason, it has its own long term reputation to consider.
 
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Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
:meh:



Similar position here. Though after more than 3 decades of this crap I don't have many more false starts and dashed hopes left in me.

----------------------

I welcome Prof Edwards comment about the deafening silence from the medical research community.

At both the individual and the institutional level that community must explicitly acknowledge that, generally speaking, the existing science in this area of medicine is hopelessly inadequate, grotesquely compromised, and often recklessly applied, and that medicine has to do a lot better, starting immediately.

We patients cannot do it on our own, no matter how organised and dedicated we are, no matter how legitimate our case nor how well we argue it. The political forces lined up against us, both within and without the medical profession, are just too powerful and entrenched. We need serious help, and it has to come primarily and clearly from within medical science itself.

Apart from any other reason, it has its own long term reputation to consider.
What @Sean said.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
You're right. A GP doctor once said this to me in a round about way - she said that I was hypersensitive to (normal) sensations in my body, so that to me they were (presumably) noticed/painful/unpleasant.... And to a 'normal' person they were there but were not noticed/ignored.

If that was right it would apply to injury pain too but it does not. I noticed that when I was injured involving a horse when I was in a flare up and from then on I wached it with less severe injuries,

ME pain and injury pain are different and respond different.
 

Simon

Senior Member
Messages
3,789
Location
Monmouth, UK
If the price for more useful research is turning a blind eye to the bad biopsychosocial stuff, then it's a price that's not worth paying imo.
I think a lot of people share that view. I'm on the other side of the fence, though I wouldn't say it's a particularly comfortable place to be. But I'm here for a couple of reasons:

The first is purely selfish. I don't think there will be any real progress in understanding this illness without a lot more high quality biomedical research, so I'm backing something that I think will help with this.

The second is that I don't think the BPS position will every be properly refuted until there is clear evidence of what does cause this illness - and that means more high quality biomedical research.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The second is that I don't think the BPS position will every be properly refuted until there is clear evidence of what does cause this illness - and that means more high quality biomedical research.
The history of psychogenic claims is as soon as they are proved wrong they shift the claim to a different disease or a specific subgroup etc. As CFS , and worse if ME, is heterogeneous, then proving them wrong for one subgroup will just see them focus on the rest. Psychobabble has to be fought quite separately from dealing with ME patients or broader CFS groups or related illnesses.

This is reinforced by the new claims that even if someone has a physical illness, verified, they can be diagnosed with a comorbid psychogenic illness. They also love to rediagnose ME. For a substantive scientific push we need a grip on CFS subgroups, CFS and ME diagnostic tests, and effective treatments. That is a big ask.

Quite aside from fighting psychobabble though, we need good research for treatments and cures. That will only come from advancing the science.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Well-researched comment from Dan Clarke. Mainly about the PACE Trial and how it has been reported:
http://www.insight.mrc.ac.uk/2014/11/12/encouraging-new-ideas-for-cfsme-research/#comment-168209

Dan Clarke #
“The CFS/ME field has been marred by a breakdown in trust between patients, clinicians, researchers and funders;”

While I agree with much of this blog, I disagree with this and think that, given the poor quality of much of the research in the area and the way in which results have often been misrepresented, it is vital that patients do not just trust clinicians, researchers or funders: many of them have shown that they are untrustworthy, so the breakdown in trust should be recognised as a good thing. Any attempt to increase patients’ trust in those who have authority over them without first taking steps such as requiring the release of the PACE trial’s results in the manner laid out within it’s protocol, will do more harm than good.

It is important that we do not allow irrelevant truisms about about the inevitable role of ‘psychological factors’ in all human experience or the biological underpinnings of the human mind to distract from the legitimate concerns of patients about those who have exaggerated the benefits of their biopsychoosocial interventions for CFS or promoted the routine medicalisation of the psychosocial aspects of CFS patient’s lives without informed consent from the patient.

For those not aware of the any of the specifics of problems in this area, I’ll use the PACE trials use of the SF36-PF scale as an example of one of the many concerns patients and patient organisations have with the way CFS research is too often conducted.

The £5 million+ PACE trial is the most expensive piece of CFS research funded by the MRC[1] and was a non-blinded trial using subjective self-report measures as it’s primary outcomes[2]. It’s published protocol defined ‘recovery’ as requiring an SF-36 Physical Functioning (SF36-PF) questionnaire score of at least 85 out of 100, while the trial’s entry criteria required a score of 65 or under, which was taken to indicate that patients’ fatigue was disabling[2]. The post-hoc criteria for recovery allowed patients with an SF36-PF score of 60 to be classed as recovered. This change was justified by the claim that a threshold of 85 would mean “approximately half the general working age population would fall outside the normal range.”[3] In fact, the data cited showed that the median score for the working age population was 100, less than 18% of the general working age population had a score under 85 when 15% had declared a long-term health problem[4,5].

An SF36-PF score of 60 was claimed in the Lancet PACE paper to be the mean -1sd of the working age population, and thus a suitable threshold for ‘normal’ disability[6]. They had in fact used data which included all those aged over 65, reducing the mean physical function score and increasing the SD[4]. For the working age population the mean -1sd was over 70, requiring patients to score at least 75 to fall within this ‘normal range’[5]. Also, the trial’s protocol makes it clear that the thresholds for recovery (including ≥85 for SF-36 PF) were intended to be more demanding than those for the mean -1sd, reporting that: “A score of 70 is about one standard deviation below the mean… for the UK adult population”[2].

The post-hoc criteria for recovery so clearly overlapped with the trial’s own criteria for severe and disabling fatigue that a specific requirement mandating that ‘recovered’ patients not also fulfil every aspect of the trial’s criteria for CFS[3] needed to be used. Even so, patients could still have been classed as recovered when reporting no change, or even a decline, in either one of the trial’s primary outcomes.

Even using the loose post-hoc criteria for recovery, only 22% of patients were classed as recovered following treatment with specialist medical care and additional CBT or GET[3]. Regardless, the BMJ had reported that PACE showed CBT and GET “cured” 30% and 28% of patients respectively[7], a Lancet commentary claimed that about 30% recovered using a “strict criterion” for recovery[8], and a paper aimed at NHS commissioners stated PACE indicated a recovery rate of 30-40% for CBT and GET[9,10]. It is wrong for such misstatements of fact to be allowed to go on affecting how doctors treat their patients, how funding decisions are made, and the information that patients are provided with before deciding whether to consent to particular interventions.

The changes to the outcome measures used in the PACE trial may not be deliberately deceptive, but they were misguided, justified by inaccurate claims, and have been misleading to others. The refusal to allow patients access to data on the outcome measures laid out in the trial’s protocol, and seemingly contradictory nature of the responses to Freedom of Information requests for this data reflects a sad dismissal of their right to be informed about the medical treatments they are being encouraged to pursue[11,12,13].

There was a time when it was claimed by some that even homeopathy was a promising medical treatment, based upon minor improvements in subjective self-report measures following non-blinded trials. It is now more widely and that it is not ethical to promote homeopathy as a legitimate form of medicine.

In the case of cognitive and behavioural interventions for CFS/ME, we have evidence from the PACE trial that they are able to lead to modest improvements in patient questionnaire scores in a non-blinded trial, without leading to improvements in real world outcomes such as employment rates, or claims for disability benefits[14]. A meta-analysis of actometer data from CBT trials for CFS also found that CBT was able to lead to improvements in questionnaire scores in non-blinded trials, but not to improvements in the amount of activity that patients were actually able to perform[15]. Sadly, the PACE trial dropped actometers as an outcome measure, although they were purchased and used at baseline[16].

Recent evidence from a large study of NHS CFS/ME specialist services indicated that reported results for CBT and GET are poorer than those reported in PACE, and that centres offering CBT and GET achieved marginally worse results than centres offering ‘activity management’[17]. We do not currently have compelling evidence that CBT or GET are more effective medical interventions for ME/CFS than homeopathy, despite some of the claims made by proponents.

It should be seen as no more acceptable for those with financial, professional or ideological interests in promoting CBT or GET as treatments for ME/CFS to exaggerate the value of these interventions than it is for others to exaggerate the value of homeopathy. Anyone with a real interest in helping patients with ME/CFS, and in allowing them to make informed decisions about their own health care, should now call for the release of results for all of the outcomes laid out in the PACE trial’s published protocol[2].

[1] http://gtr.rcuk.ac.uk/project/7EC0DBA0-0FC2-44F1-8708-8676EBEDA4C9

[2] White PD, Sharpe MC, Chalder T, DeCesare JC, Walyin R: Protocol for the PACE trial: a randomised controlled trial of adaptative pacing, cognitive behaviour therapy and graded exercise as supplements to standardised specialist medical care versus standardised specialist medical care alone for patients with the chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis or encephalopathy. BMC Neurol 2007, 7:6

[3] White PD, Johnson AL, Goldsmith K, Chalder T, Sharpe MC. Recovery from chronic fatigue syndrome after treatments given in the PACE trial. Psychol Med 2013;1-9, published online 31 Jan. doi:10.1017/S0033291713000020.

[4] Bowling A, Bond M, Jenkinson C, Lamping DL. Short form 36 (SF-36) health survey questionnaire: which normative data should be used? Comparisons between the norms provided by the Omnibus Survey in Britain, The Health Survey for England and the Oxford Healthy Life Survey. J Publ Health Med 1999, 21: 255–70.

[5] Office of Population Censuses and Surveys. Social Survey Division, OPCS Omnibus Survey, November 1992. Colchester, Essex: UK Data Archive, September 1997. SN: 3660, http://dx.doi.org/10.5255/UKDA-SN-3660-1

[6] White PD, Goldsmith KA, Johnson AL, Potts L, Walwyn R, DeCesare JC, Baber HL, Burgess M, Clark LV, Cox DL, Bavinton J, Angus BJ, Murphy G, Murphy M, O’Dowd H, Wilks D, McCrone P, Chalder T, Sharpe M. Comparison of adaptive pacing therapy, cognitive behaviour therapy, graded exercise therapy, and specialist medical care for chronic fatigue syndrome (PACE): a randomised trial. Lancet 2011;377:823-36.

[7] BMJ Short Cuts: ‘All you need to read in the other general journals’ BMJ 2011;342:d1168

[8] Knoop H, Bleijenberg G. Chronic fatigue syndrome: where to PACE from here?. Lancet 2011; 377: 786-788.

[9] Collin SM, Crawley E, May MT, Sterne JAC, Hollingworth W: The impact of CFS/ME on employment and productivity in the UK: a cross-sectional study based on the CFS/ME national outcomes database. BMC Health Serv Res 2011, 11:217.

[10] Interview with Amy Chesterton and Esther Crawley. Available athttp://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news-archive/news/2384/

[11] Freedom of Information request http://www.meassociation.org.uk/?p=6171

[12] Freedom of Information responsehttp://www.meassociation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/FOI from Queen Mary.pdf [3]

[13] Follow up Freedom of Information request:https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/pace_trial_recovery_rates_and_po

[14] McCrone P, Sharpe M, Chalder T, Knapp M, Johnson AL, Goldsmith KA, White PD. (2012) Adaptive pacing, cognitive behaviour therapy, graded exercise, and specialist medical care for chronic fatigue syndrome: a cost-effectiveness analysis. PLoS ONE 7: e40808.

[15] Bleijenberg G, Prins JB, Wiborg JF, Knoop H, Stulemeijer M,. ‘How does cognitive behaviour therapy reduce fatigue in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome? The role of physical activity.’ Psychol Med. 2010 Aug;40(8):1281-7.

[16] PD White, MC Sharpe, T Chalder, JC DeCesare, R Walwyn, for the PACE trial management group: Response to comments on “Protocol for the PACE trial” http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2377/7/6/comments#306608

[17] Crawley E, Collin SM, White PD, Rimes K, Sterne JA, May MT; CFS/ME National Outcomes Database. (2013) Treatment outcome in adults with chronic fatigue syndrome: a prospective study in England based on the CFS/ME National Outcomes Database. QJM. 106:555-65.

November 13, 2014
 

shahida

Senior Member
Messages
120
It depends what you mean by 'moving forward'. If the price for more useful research is turning a blind eye to the bad biopsychosocial stuff, then it's a price that's not worth paying imo.
That's already happened hasn't it- Holgate (MRC) awarded £300,000 to Crawley for a study looking at the epidemiology of 'CFS/ME'which will: investigate 'risk factors' eg. sleep patterns depression anxiety and that old chestnut 'maintaining factors'.
So it seems its isn't just a sop but money is being given.
realistically i think the most we can hope for is that we get some money for proper research- but the nonsense will also be given money too. that's the way it's gonna be....
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The Clark comment is very good, but misses the point that SD is a meaningless measure on the population distribution of SF36PF because the data set does not meet the requirements to apply SD at all. SD is an undefined function.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I have been wondering about this. On the basis that the threshold for recovery is a nonsense calculation, are there grounds for formally asking for a retraction of the recovery paper? If we got a team of statistics savvy advocates together to write a very very short paper addressing this one point, for formal publication or at least submission to the journal, would it be a good thing to do?
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I have been wondering about this. On the basis that the threshold for recovery is a nonsense calculation, are there grounds for formally asking for a retraction of the recovery paper? If we got a team of statistics savvy advocates together to write a very very short paper addressing this one point, for formal publication or at least submission to the journal, would it be a good thing to do?

Sounds good to me. I've seen no end of this issue being mentioned here and in comments to online newspaper articles and the like but it needs to be written as a challenge in a medical journal.
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
If we got a team of statistics savvy advocates together to write a very very short paper addressing this one point, for formal publication or at least submission to the journal, would it be a good thing to do?
Something along those lines has been formally published already....
The article is behind a pay-wall, but the full two-page letter can be read via the "look inside" facility (See the 'look inside' button at the top-right of the webpage):
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11136-014-0819-0#page-1
Forum thread:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sing-normative-data-incl-on-pace-trial.33326/
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
Was there an actual call for retraction? The entire paper hinges on the SD calculation. Its not valid. Hence neither is the paper.
No, it didn't call for a retraction. The article explains why the SD calculation (used to define a 'recovery') was inappropriate/invalid, including exploring the issue of the unsuitability of using standard deviations when data has a skewed or truncated distribution.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
No, it didn't call for a retraction. The article explains why the SD calculation (used to define a 'recovery') was inappropriate/invalid, including exploring the issue of the unsuitability of using standard deviations when data has a skewed or truncated distribution.
Then we can cite that article in a formal call for retraction, but we need more.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I have been wondering about this. On the basis that the threshold for recovery is a nonsense calculation, are there grounds for formally asking for a retraction of the recovery paper? If we got a team of statistics savvy advocates together to write a very very short paper addressing this one point, for formal publication or at least submission to the journal, would it be a good thing to do?

I'm pretty sure that someone wrote to the journal pointing out the factual error in the reasoning for changing the recovery part of the protocol from 85 to 60. But the journal wasn't interested. Also they are not a member of COPE which provides a mechanism to complain about journals publishing factually inaccurate papers. In truth the editor is a supporter of PACE so I would not expect him to withdraw the paper.

There is data available in the national archive for the SF36 - physical function scale which was used in the paper they quote in justifying their changes. So this could make the basis for a paper analyzing the statistics behind the SF36 scale probably identifying the need for age matching and to use healthy people for defining recovery thresholds. The issue of whether SD is defined should also touch on both the recovery definition and clinically useful improvement definitions.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Yes, there was a letter published. However there was no formal request for retraction. A formal request that is then denied, without substantive grounds, can then be a target for advocacy.

This is probably better discussed here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sing-normative-data-incl-on-pace-trial.33326/

This is not just up to the journal. If the journal fails to appropriately address the issue then their reliability is in serious question. We need to push that.
 
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worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
The history of psychogenic claims is as soon as they are proved wrong they shift the claim to a different disease or a specific subgroup etc. As CFS , and worse if ME, is heterogeneous, then proving them wrong for one subgroup will just see them focus on the rest.

I seem to remember this in action in the early aftermath of the initial XMRV research, where Wessely said

This seemed to me to be an attempt to establish dominion over British patients in a suddenly decreasing pool of influence and it was interesting that it was the very first thing that he thought of, rather proving your point. It annoyed me at the time, but with hindsight it was nice to think that we'd got him on the run, even if only for a few months.
 

Woolie

Senior Member
Messages
3,263
Hi there,

I'm a research psychologist by training (relax, I'm a neuropsychologist - I study REAL biological disorders like stroke and brain tumour to learn more about the brain). So thought I might give you some of my thoughts on the psychiatric/psychological stuff that's been happening.

Psychiatry, being largely a clinical specialty, rather than a scientific discipline, is, in my view, alarmingly tied to historic tradition. In fact, the whole idea of psychosomatic disorders - illness caused by the mind - comes not from an evidence base, but from the ideas of Freud. Freud used the term "hysteria" to describe a bunch of patients - mainly women - for whom he could not find a biological basis of their illness, so he proposed their problem was psychogenic. In those days, many current diagnostic methods were not available, so there was a huge population of people with "no known organic disorder". The scary part is that when early doctors took the trouble to follow up some of the cases they had labelled in this way, the results were alarming. Richard Webster writes about one such study in the 50s (see http://www.richardwebster.net/freudandhysteria.html):

"... a meticulous study of eighty-five young or middle-aged patients who had received the diagnosis of ‘hysteria’ at the National Hospital for Nervous Diseases in London during the years 1951, 1953 and 1955. …During a follow-up period which averaged only nine years, twelve of the eighty-five patients had died, fourteen had become totally disabled and sixteen partially disabled. Most of these cases of death or disability were due to organic illnesses which had been mistaken for ‘hysteria’."

Okay, so that was years ago - but don't you think maybe it was due reason to just dump the whole idea from psychiatry as having no empirical basis? Not so! Despite frequent changes in its name, this basic concept has persisted ever since - having been known variously as "neuasthenia", "conversion disorder" and most recently, "somatoform disorder". There has been little research aimed at validating the concept (for example, setting out a set of positive defining psychological criteria).

Richard Webster goes on to write (see http://www.richardwebster.net/freudandhysteria.html):

"... Linda Gamlin [1] relates the case of a woman who, by the time she was taken to hospital, was so ill that she nearly died. ‘For over two weeks she had been feverish and extremely weak, with typical signs of liver disease: yellow skin, dark brown urine, and putty-coloured stools.’ The woman’s general practitioner, however, had diagnosed post-natal depression and had associated her illness with an emotional breakdown which she had suffered seven years earlier. This view was repeated by no less than four other doctors in her group practice. Only when her husband rang a hospital consultant in desperation was the proper diagnosis of viral hepatitis made and the woman rushed to hospital.

Such anecdotes can be multiplied almost indefinitely. A common feature of many of them is the credulous and perhaps not always fully conscious acceptance by some physicians of extreme theories of psychosomatic illness for whose correctness there exists no evidence whatsoever, and which are ultimately derived from ancient medical fallacies about the non-existent disease of hysteria.

The careless use of the term ‘somatization’, and, indeed, the very fact that this medically tendentious word is used at all, almost certainly contributes to sustaining this climate of credulity. It also suggests that modifications of terminology alone will not solve any problems. It is the concept of ‘hysteria’ and not merely the external label which needs to be discarded"

So you can see how this idea that has surrepticiously crept into the hearts and minds of doctors, while receiving very little critical examination. I think its also part of a bigger pattern in human thinking - we not only like to have neatly packaged explanations for things, but we also abhor the randomness of illness and our general lack of control over it, so to avoid that nasty reality, we imagine we have a lot more psychological control over our symptoms than we do. Sure, I do think emotions can have biological manifestations, but I'm extremely skeptical about the extent to which psychological conditions can "cause" full-blown medical illness. The evidence for such a link just isn't there.

I encourage anyone whose brain is currently up to it to have a look at Richard Webster's original article and share in the outrage! see http://www.richardwebster.net/freudandhysteria.html.

1. Linda Gamlin, ‘All in Whose Mind’, Guardian, 16 July 1991. This article draws some examples from a paper by Erwin K. Koranyi, ‘Morbidity and Rate of Undiagnosed Physical Illnesses in a Psychiatric Clinic Population’, Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 36, April 1979, pp. 414–19
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Hi @Woolie - that's all very interesting - I'm not up to reading the full article but I've always wondered why psychiatrists who don't support this widespread and careless diagnosis of hysteria/somatoform disorder don't stand up for us specifically - PWME, that is - and mount a public challenge to how we're being treated.

I think that the single thing that has shocked me most over the last 10-15 years of ME-hood - the period of time during which everything about ME has been overshadowed by psychiatrists - has been the deafening silence from the medical/psychiatric community.

Where have the frustrated NHS GPs and consultants been who know that this is an organic disease and are frustrated by the lack of effective treatment that they can give us? Why haven't they been putting a case for increased funding to the MRC? Why haven't psychiatrists been banding together to insist that it's ridiculous to claim every disease that doesn't show up on standard tests as a psychological illness? Why haven't they defended their own discipline, let alone us?

I don't know if you're up to it, @Woolie, but I'd love to see some of these psychiatrists who oppose this casual and ignorant use of the psychosomatic label being asked to write articles challenging how this appallingly bad science being used to hurt PWME so badly.