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L-Carnitine Fumarate

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
@kraken, nope, no anxiety. It just gives me energy and helps me to feel overall better. As you said, more alive. But again, it took months (I'd say at least four months, although can't remember exactly now) before I could bump up to 500mg. When I was adjusting to it, it did give me some anxiety although it was more like coffee jitters than intensive anxiety attacks. I guess the best way to describe it was I would feel "strung out" on more than 250mg/day.

After I cleared that 250mg/day hurdle, though, I breezed through the 500mg/day benchmark. It wasn't long before I was up to 1000mg. I've held it there for a couple/few months. I'm thinking about seeing if I get any additional benefit by adding another 500mg, but have been holding off on that because LCF is kinda pricey. LOL

Worth noting is that I still *feel* like I can do more than I actually can. I still peter out if I try to take on too much. But I'm feeling better every day. LCF is a big part of that. I know because I forgot to take it for about a week (it got pushed back in my supplement cabinet) and I started feeling not so great. Poorer energy, worse feeling overall, etc. When I realized I'd forgotten it for so long and added it back in, the effect was subtly positive but immediate.

Also worth noting is that ALCAR doesn't really seem to do anything for me.

HTH.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Well, I increased LCF 500mg/day (now taking 1500mg/day total) on Sunday. Noticed no difference in anything until today. Just a while ago I noticed a little bit of a weird feeling in my head and a little bit of nausea. But I have no idea if it has anything to do with the LCF. I'm trying to remember if it's similar to any of my start-up symptoms but I just can't say right now. It could be just garden-variety hormonal stuff. I mention it because LCF was the last thing I took.

@Freddd: I did have some questions about LCF and the "lizard brain" (limbic system).

That you know of, what's the upper limit of LCF dose that anyone should take per day?

Do you know exactly how damage to the lizard brain occurs? Can it occur from emotional trauma, or is it all mostly physical trauma (actual force trauma to the skull/spine or damage by poor nutrition)?

Thanks for any input.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Well, I increased LCF 500mg/day (now taking 1500mg/day total) on Sunday. Noticed no difference in anything until today. Just a while ago I noticed a little bit of a weird feeling in my head and a little bit of nausea. But I have no idea if it has anything to do with the LCF. I'm trying to remember if it's similar to any of my start-up symptoms but I just can't say right now. It could be just garden-variety hormonal stuff. I mention it because LCF was the last thing I took.

@Freddd: I did have some questions about LCF and the "lizard brain" (limbic system).

That you know of, what's the upper limit of LCF dose that anyone should take per day?

Do you know exactly how damage to the lizard brain occurs? Can it occur from emotional trauma, or is it all mostly physical trauma (actual force trauma to the skull/spine or damage by poor nutrition)?

Thanks for any input.

The limbic circuit, the seat of a lot of moods, FFF activity which includes nesting and reproductive activities and every aspect of sex, has some very specific damage in Parkinson's disease. Some boxers appear to show that physical damage can do it. However, mostly it appears to be demyelinations caused by AdoCbl/LCF deficiencies in the brain, lack of ATP generation cause neuron damage over a 20+ year period hypothesized by the researchers who did a study a few years ago. (Progressive) Supra Nuclear Palsy appears to have similar damage in addition to other damage. MS and SACD also have demyelinations in brain and cord in different areas from Parkinson's. The whole group including CFS, FMS, MS, ALS, Parkinson's, (P)SNP, autism and Alzheimer's all have low cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin levels and various degrees and mixes of elevated CSF MMA (low AdoCbl/LCF) and/or elevated homocysteine (MeCbl/Mfolate/ p5p). This group has more B12 deficiency specifically in the CSF than the body. SACD includes body deficiencies. These groups appear to have difficulty transporting cobalamin into the CSF and/or retaining it there.

For congestive heart failure the general dose mentioned medically is about 1000mg a day. Doses of up to 5 grams have been tried (medically) for Parkinson's but without the other 3 of the deadlock quartet. I find no observable gains for me above about 500mg/day.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Thanks, Freddd, that's what I was after. Head trauma damaging the limbic system would make sense for me since I've experienced quite a few of those. I guess probably everyone has but a few exceptional and very clear instances spring to mind for me.

It's also good to know that there probably isn't any benefit to higher doses of LCF. It's 'spensive. I'll cut back to 1000mg for a while, in case there's some healing benefit to that dose, and then to 500mg/day later on.
 
Messages
62
The LCF has going great in terms of side-effects, no real anxiety after the second/third day, guess the initial dose just set me off. I did titrate from ~150-200 mg. However, I dont feel very much difference in my muscles/energy from a steady dose of 500 mg. Tried 1000 mg and that went fine, but didnt see much improvement.

Got some ALCAR at home and decided to try that on an alternate week by recommendation from Freddd just to see how it stands out to my methylation regime compared to LCF. I've got significantly more anxiety with that, same dose as well as some confusion/focus problems other side-effects. On the other hand I got some real energy. Today was much worse whereas the anxiety was intense for almost the rest of the day, this was just from 250mg on an empty stomach in the morning.

Now I was thinking about what @Freddd been talking about, possible anxiety and reactions actually might indicate that this is showing something thats damaged and needs healing. Should I switch to ALCAR and go that route instead?

Edit: saw that my ALCAR bottle expired in April this year. Wonder if its still okay to use..
 
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whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
For whatever it's worth, ALCAR doesn't really do anything for me. But LCF produced a noticeable effect, very quickly.

It could be that ALCAR may have some value for me after my deeper damage is healed (if that is even possible, LOL), but right now, it just doesn't do a thing. I've tried it many, many times since it became the rage with Perricone oh so many years ago. Most recently a couple months ago.

Just something to think about: if LCF is going well, why would you want to switch off of it?

One thing I've noticed in myself and other people over the years is that for some reason we have difficulty in "staying the course", especially with supplements. This may have something to do with the fact that we mostly don't have any authority to appeal to...it's frequently "just laypeople" giving advice. I dunno, but I've pondered this phenomenon before and have been pondering again lately, quite a bit.

If something works for us for a week or so, we figure something else may work better, and start fiddling with our regimen. Then we get confused/annoyed/afraid because our results are less than stellar. We're like frogs trying to find the best lilypad to light on. ;)


Try ALCAR if you like it, but IMO if LCF is working you might want to consider staying with that for a couple of months and see where it takes you. To my knowledge, ALCAR doesn't heal mitochondrial damage, and LCF promotes a whole different, deeper level of healing than ALCAR. That's the feeling I get from it,anyway. For example, my exercise and stress tolerance have increased to an astonishing degree (still not normal, but for me, a rather miraculous improvement) since I started doing the Deadlock Quartet, and after what I've read here, I think that's all about the LCF.

Anyway, that's my little rant/$0.02 on that subject. And, as someone else around here has noted, it's worth exactly what you paid for it. ;)

Hopefully @Freddd with chime in with some more knowledgeable info to guide you. You know I always wish you luck, @kraken. :)

Edited to add: I already posted some of this in some posts earlier in the month. How time flies. I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting again. But I'm leaving the repeats because maybe they needed to be said again. But apologies if it's just annoyingly redundant. LOL
 
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stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
Just to chime in. It took me a long time yo try LCF, I couldn't find the heart.. and that was because ALCAR was such a disaster for me the four times I tried it. I became carnitine-shy.
I take 500 mg LCF as a single dose and have not attempted to increase in months, but plan to do so soon. It is definitely a rung in my ladder and I regret waiting so long to try it.
 

Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
Messages
699
Location
USA
I have yet to try LCF but I will also add that ALCAR at a 500mg dose gives me a feeling of overstimulation, anxiety and horror. I'll buy a milligram scale when it comes time to try LCF, to titrate up slowly.
 
Messages
62
For whatever it's worth, ALCAR doesn't really do anything for me. But LCF produced a noticeable effect, very quickly.

It could be that ALCAR may have some value for me after my deeper damage is healed (if that is even possible, LOL), but right now, it just doesn't do a thing. I've tried it many, many times since it became the rage with Perricone oh so many years ago. Most recently a couple months ago.

Just something to think about: if LCF is going well, why would you want to switch off of it?

One thing I've noticed in myself and other people over the years is that for some reason we have difficulty in "staying the course", especially with supplements. This may have something to do with the fact that we mostly don't have any authority to appeal to...it's frequently "just laypeople" giving advice. I dunno, but I've pondered this phenomenon before and have been pondering again lately, quite a bit.

If something works for us for a week or so, we figure something else may work better, and start fiddling with our regimen. Then we get confused/annoyed/afraid because our results are less than stellar. We're like frogs trying to find the best lilypad to light on. ;)


Try ALCAR if you like it, but IMO if LCF is working you might want to consider staying with that for a couple of months and see where it takes you. To my knowledge, ALCAR doesn't heal mitochondrial damage, and LCF promotes a whole different, deeper level of healing than ALCAR. That's the feeling I get from it,anyway. For example, my exercise and stress tolerance have increased to an astonishing degree (still not normal, but for me, a rather miraculous improvement) since I started doing the Deadlock Quartet, and after what I've read here, I think that's all about the LCF.

Anyway, that's my little rant/$0.02 on that subject. And, as someone else around here has noted, it's worth exactly what you paid for it. ;)

Hopefully @Freddd with chime in with some more knowledgeable info to guide you. You know I always wish you luck, @kraken. :)

Edited to add: I already posted some of this in some posts earlier in the month. How time flies. I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting again. But I'm leaving the repeats because maybe they needed to be said again. But apologies if it's just annoyingly redundant. LOL

Thanks for the kind advice @whodathunkit :) You are very right about the difficulty "staying in the course" indeed. I'm very much like that to be honest. I just wanna find the optimal way of everything but thats impossible when talking about human biology. Yes, the reason I considered ALCAR was because of the reactions, and thats why I thought it might indicate something that needs healing more than the LCF. But all in all, the anxiety was really BRUTAL one day so I've jumped back to the LCF again. Probably best to stay this course for a while. I'm really having a lot of side-effects from the methylation at the moment so thats why I'm so confused on what to change in my supplements. On the other hand, a lot of things improve. Guess I have to keep up with this struggle for a while..
 

daniariete2000

Senior Member
Messages
118
Hi,

i read that L acetyl carnitine in the only form that cross the brain barrier. Is it true ? I'm assuming the fumarate form from Dr. Best as suggested by Freed but I would like to know if what i wrote is true.

I would like also know if the fumarate form can help for production of testosterone as the acetyl form does.

Thanks

Daniele
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
Ok, thanks....t hat might be really significant for me. I have Chronic Chlamydia Pneumonia infection. CPn is an intracellular infection and cannot make it's own ATP. It steals the ATP from the cells it infects.
Any advice re brand and dose of L-Carnitine Fumarate?

Branston, I'm guessing you know about: http://cpnhelp.org/. I spent a couple of years over there on the forum a while back. Still have a blog there: http://www.cpnhelp.org/blog/biohazard
 
Messages
39
Location
Florida, USA
@Freddd and others, please help...

Only got through page 2 of this thread, but I need some help as I started 125mg of the LCF this morning and already feeling it strongly. It feels like old hypoglycemic symptoms I used to get before I solved those with my low fat/high carb diet (a paradox, I know). It feels jittery, need to eat like NOW, and craving salty foods. Haven't had these feelings in a long long while and taking me back to a not good place. Any ideas?

I also had this insanely sharp pain in my right index finger pad, very odd! It felt like I was being stabbed by the tiniest needle in the world, I had to get a tooth pick and press into the finger, it finally stopped after 30 mins or so.

I'm up to
3200 mcg Methylfolate,
2500mcg b12 and approx.
300 mg Potassium (plus all the bananas and coconuts I eat).
5g adb12 once a week

I added in Naturmade B complex, Vitamin D, Vitamin A, Vitamin E and Vitamin C a few weeks ago also. Have been feeling good, until LCF today, feeling funky with hot flashes, hypoglycemic, etc. I hope it's a good sign.

I am also taking FIR saunas daily, which raises BH4, not that I know what that would do yet as I learn all of this is new to me!:)

TropicalKid
 
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aturtles

Senior Member
Messages
129
Location
Seattle, WA
I can't speak to the craving of salty foods (how's your potassium?), but the jittery and hyped you might find improves with use of TMG (Trimethilglycine). I use it when I feel wound up from the LCF and it takes the edge off. See if that helps. Use as needed.
 
Messages
39
Location
Florida, USA
I can't speak to the craving of salty foods (how's your potassium?), but the jittery and hyped you might find improves with use of TMG (Trimethilglycine). I use it when I feel wound up from the LCF and it takes the edge off. See if that helps. Use as needed.
Hello @aturtles , thanks so much for the response.

I really believe I am having some kind of insulin response to the LCF. I am having to take super small doses, with food. I believe my dose would be about 100 mg. 2x day.

My potassium has been good. Does potassium have to do with LCF also?

Out of the blue yesterday, I had a Potassium crash and had to take quite a bit to get my levels back up. It was an eye opener. I believe some cleansing I am doing (enemas, etc.) also depletes Potassium so I am having to adjust for that. I feel much better today, levels feel normal again.

I will look into the TMG, I don't really feel wound up from the LCF, it's like a weak, jittery, sugar crashy feeling. Please let me know if you have anymore thoughts, I really appreciate it.:)

TropicalKid
 

Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
Messages
699
Location
USA
I just took 1/8th of a Doctors Best LCF capsule this morning (110mg of the ~880mg powder inside one cap). 2 hours later I'm feeling excellent. I feel energized in a calm, grounded way. I feel alive. No anxiety so far.

I now have Freddd's deadlock quartet (MeCbl + AdCbl + 5-L-MTHF + L-carnitine) in place and I must say it feels MUCH better than not having any of them. :)
 
Messages
39
Location
Florida, USA
I just took 1/8th of a Doctors Best LCF capsule this morning (110mg of the ~880mg powder inside one cap). 2 hours later I'm feeling excellent. I feel energized in a calm, grounded way. I feel alive. No anxiety so far.

I now have Freddd's deadlock quartet (MeCbl + AdCbl + 5-L-MTHF + L-carnitine) in place and I must say it feels MUCH better than not having any of them. :)[/QU
Glad it's helping! I don't think it's helping me, not sure if this means I should try ALCAR instead?
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,561
Location
Seattle
@adreno and/or @caledonia -- any truth to the notion that l-carnitine lowers choline levels?

I used to take l-carnitine all the time, but read a few years ago (can't remember the site) that it can drastically lower choline levels and thus cause liver problems.

???

Also, my fat intake isn't very high (always tend to get RLS -- very frustrating), but wouldn't be surprised if I have some fatty liver issues (due to not getting enough fats in my diet and thus too many carbs). But another 'expert' a few years ago told me that carnitine would cause weight loss, so she told me to avoid it. I've gone downhill big time during these past four years -- have lost so much muscle I need to use a wheelchair outside of my apartment.

I'm obviously confused, so would appreciate your input(s). :)
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@adreno and/or @caledonia -- any truth to the notion that l-carnitine lowers choline levels?

I used to take l-carnitine all the time, but read a few years ago (can't remember the site) that it can drastically lower choline levels and thus cause liver problems.

???

Also, my fat intake isn't very high (always tend to get RLS -- very frustrating), but wouldn't be surprised if I have some fatty liver issues (due to not getting enough fats in my diet and thus too many carbs). But another 'expert' a few years ago told me that carnitine would cause weight loss, so she told me to avoid it. I've gone downhill big time during these past four years -- have lost so much muscle I need to use a wheelchair outside of my apartment.

I'm obviously confused, so would appreciate your input(s). :)

Hi Danny,

L-carnitine fumarate is specifically the kind used to transport fats into mitochondria. It is necessary for mitochondria to form replacing those that "wear out". It causes, with all other cofactors needed, normally especially AdoCbl and MeCbl and L-methylfolate for muscle cells to form and the mitochondria in them. Cell formation takes more than methylation. It take ATP also and it directly needs carnitine. Our bodies' are supposed to be able to synthecize the type of carnitine needed in specific places, except when we can't which is why it can be debated that carnitine should be a vitamin. Muscle atrophy is the famed "release of stored B12". Starvation of one or more of the needed nutrients causes it along with other organ breakdown. Excess MMA production occurs in the same conditions in which muscles atrophy. There are other reasons as well but we are talking about carnitine here. Carnitine is needed to stop involuntary weight loss. Carnitine can result in weight loss if one doesn't increase one's intake with an increased metabolism and growing new tissue.

I would suggest that you will likely exhibit a "from hell" refeeding syndrome (extreme deficiencies induced when healing starts following starvation, potassium deficiency starting on third day can be fatal, if you should happen to get healing started at this point. I lost 50 pounds of muscles and my thigh muscles came to a narrow peak no thicker than my thumb up until 7 years ago. I now have my skiers thighs back along with all the other muscle I lost. except those with neurological deficit causing lack of muscle. Sorry to hear about the wheel chair, I've been dodging that for 6 years and nowhere near that any more. The liver needs the LCF for transporting fat to the largest ATP production facility in the body with about half of the body's total B12 in mitochondria. That is not inline for many beliefs about the liver and B12 but then nobody has every found "the storage facility" to be anything other than lots of
mitochondria in liver cells released to the body as the cells break down, and muscles breaking down, and multi organ breakdown when conditions generate high MMA.