Methylfolate and mercury detoxing

[xrunner]

This afternoon I went to see my muscle-testing chiropractor and voila! my toxin point was very strong and what came up was mercury. So it appears that somehow the increased folate released mercury that had been stored in my body tissues (the testing indicated tissues in general). The remedy is something called Spanish black radish by Standard Process, which helps with detoxing, which I have taken before with no problem.
Any ideas?

Mary

@Mary
Couple of things.
In the past, I have used muscle testing a lot and posted enthusiastically about it.
I do not trust it any longer and now stay away from it as far as I can. I believe it and similar approaches will hinder any chance of real recovery from this illness or set you back to a point where you may have problems reversing the damage.

If you doubt you might have a problem with mercury, the safest way to deal with it is to read/study the entire book "Amalgam illness" by Andy Cutler. It will answer most of your questions about testing, which supplements and dosing and chelating agents. There's also a yahoo "Frequent dose chelation" support group where you can find lots of helpful information.

Finally, if you read the study by Rich on the Simplified Methylation Protocol one of the conclusions was that among the cases where the protocol didn't work well were patients with mercury toxicity (and that protocol was with a fraction of the high doses you've been taking). Cutler says more or less the same, that mercury comes out only with specific chelation agents used according to a certain pattern. You can draw your own conclusions.
Good luck.

 

[shah78]

There seems to be a "Faux-battle" between the Cutler and Yasko groups. Cutler says "Start ALA chelation yesterday", while Yasko says " Start methylation and you will start chelating". Being a life long "Vata", I rejoice in following both. I started with Cutler (because I had never really studied Yasko, Richvank or Freddd then). But after 49 rounds of ALA I was getting too many side effects to continue. By then I discovered Freddd and then discovered Freetheanimal's gut rehab protocol. So after nine months away from Cutler I resumed, but this time with a much heartier methylation ability and a much more robust large intestine. Voila! MUCH EASIER CHELATION. My working hypothesis for what I should have done: Get the gut ready first, "play" with improving methylation, and then dig into the ALA stash in your supplement cabinet. But, but , but,.if Cutler chelation is smooth from the get go, just reverse the order.You will need all three eventually. The Cutler-Yasko bravado is way over the top! "You will take no other God before me" doesn't work in religion, and it does not "play well" here either. At least the " FreetheanimalPharm" +Tater" triumvirate never weighed in on this subject. So they "win" by default.

 

[Mary]

Hi xrunner - I'm not doubting I have a mercury problem. I did read Andy Cutler's book, I had the hair analysis/mineral testing done, it indicated some mercury toxicity, and I did follow his protocol several months ago, I did it for a couple of months. It was a bit rough and also having to take the pills on such a tight schedule got to be a bit much so I stopped. And Rich did tell me that some of the people who didn't do well on his protocol had mercury toxicity. so I had high hopes when I started Cutler's protocol, but noticed no difference in PEM after a couple of months. So of course it might have been good to keep on with it, but I just couldn't at the time.

I have been helped a lot by muscle testing. It was my chiropractor who discovered my weak adrenals and helped me so much using an adrenal glandular product. He helped my digestion get back on track when the doctors were useless. I've lost track of how much he's helped me.

So this week when I was in lala land and didn't have a clue what was going on, mercury showed up - and maybe if I hadn't been so fuzzy and impaired, I might have figured it out on my own. But I'm very grateful that my chiro picked it up.

As I see it, I have a couple of choices here. Go back to Cutler's protocol which was very slow and tedious - and I know you can't detox mercury quickly - or, try upping the folate a little at a time using the Spanish black radish and see what happens.

Like I said before, I had no clue that increasing methylfolate would cause a detox reaction. I've read about several people taking high doses of methylfolate with no problem, the methylfolate had increased my energy. and I'd never detoxed on it, so was not expecting it to happen.

Mary

 

[shah78]

Great conversation..... I 'm not so sure Freddd would agree that methylfolate is causing a detox. Methylfolate may be simply causing methylation. ..... Also, an optimal methylation ability may help "non-toxic people stay above water. But even an optimal methylation ability is not going to drag mercury out of a mercury toxic brain. That's asking a lot from a system, that evolved over millions/'billions of years without amalgam fillings as part of the equation. Our ancesters may have been eating "proto-clams and oysters, but I don't "see" early hominids getting in sail boats and snagging mercury laden swordfish.

 

[caledonia]

@Mary
Couple of things.
In the past, I have used muscle testing a lot and posted enthusiastically about it.
I do not trust it any longer and now stay away from it as far as I can. I believe it and similar approaches will hinder any chance of real recovery from this illness or set you back to a point where you may have problems reversing the damage.

I also use self muscle testing extensively. That being said, you also have to use common sense and talk to your doc if you're stuck or getting worse.
I've found muscle testing is terrible for determining electrolyte status. This is because it relies on good electrolyte balance and good hydration to be accurate. One other problem I've had is with determining B12 doses initially because there is a lag time before methylation kicks in. It is also necessary to use trial and error at certain times.

So while self muscle testing can be useful as a shortcut for trial and error, I wouldn't suggest turning your brain off and relying on it as a sole 100% sure fire method. There is no such thing, or we would all be cured by now...

 

[Mary]

I had tried Richvank's methylation protocol off and on for 3-1/2 years - off and on, because I had a very hard time tolerating it. Each time I took his supps I felt like crap and would stick it out as long as I could, and then stop again. And then I stumbled across Freddd's protocol plus his information on potassium, and how Freddd posited that the difficulty tolerating Rich's protocol might be due to low potassium, not detoxing.

So I tried Freddd's supplements and it was a different world - it made me feel good, not bad. my potassium did tank but it was easily fixed. And I realized I had felt that way before (very tired and lethargic from low potassium) but never knew what it was before.

But this week was a completely different ball game. I have no doubt that my chiropractor was correct in picking up mercury toxicity.

I agree with Caledonia that self-muscle testing can be tricky. It helps me some, but my chiro is more accurate. And absolutely cannot rely on it for all the answers - or we would be all cured

Mary

 

[whodathunkit]

Can't prove it but I think methylation does cause detox, and also that detox is a huge part of symptoms for most people doing methylation.

Stands to reason that when you rev up your metabolism and it starts kicking out garbage that has been stagnating for goodness knows how long, we get sick.

Problem is compounded when the body starts "using up" minerals and nutrients (potassium, methylfolate, B12's, magnesium, zinc, etc.) during the kick-start that are in short supply. These minerals and nutrients are needed in larger supply for increased metabolism, as well as even for healthy people when detoxing, so sick people kick-starting methylation after suffering from poor metabolism for years may be getting a double-whammy of deficiency. The problem is sticking with it long enough, and figuring out your own specific deficiencies/nutrient ratios well enough to detox enough to feel better. It seems like it's so hard for a lot of people.

Of course I'm not a science geek, so again, can't prove this. It's just an idea based on years of experimenting with natural health and thinking over what myself and others have gone through when undertaking a deliberate detox. This board is really interesting because the symtpoms I read about here are when people are attempting to cure themselves of CFS is almost like an accidental microcosm of what "healthy" people experience when deliberately detoxing.

 

[xrunner]

@Mary
I wasn't questioning either the accuracy or reliability of muscle testing (which certainly has limitations) or of any practitioner. My practitioner was pretty good too and seemed to help if I look at my progress in a certain way.
I do not doubt that this kind of treatment and like many others, most often than not give benefits, at least initially.
The key question however is what you said, why aren't we all cured?

 

[Milford]

are you sure it is lead that is giving you the metallic taste or is it mercury ?
have you tried chlorella,

Definitely Lead.....same taste I got when I did EDTA chelation IV....gave a VERY strong taste. I stripped a whole house full of old paint with a Hot Air gun""........... I know that is where th e lead came from back then. But I also do have Mercury as well, so am doing some DMSA at the moment.
I have tried Chlorella, but it contains a lot of Iron, and I have Hemochromatosis....so I soon had to stop that.

 

[Milford]

Can't prove it but I think methylation does cause detox, and also that detox is a huge part of symptoms for most people doing methylation.

Stands to reason that when you rev up your metabolism and it starts kicking out garbage that has been stagnating for goodness knows how long, we get sick.

Problem is compounded when the body starts "using up" minerals and nutrients (potassium, methylfolate, B12's, magnesium, zinc, etc.) during the kick-start that are in short supply. These minerals and nutrients are needed in larger supply for increased metabolism, as well as even for healthy people when detoxing, so sick people kick-starting methylation after suffering from poor metabolism for years may be getting a double-whammy of deficiency. The problem is sticking with it long enough, and figuring out your own specific deficiencies/nutrient ratios well enough to detox enough to feel better. It seems like it's so hard for a lot of people.

Of course I'm not a science geek, so again, can't prove this. It's just an idea based on years of experimenting with natural health and thinking over what myself and others have gone through when undertaking a deliberate detox. This board is really interesting because the symtpoms I read about here are when people are attempting to cure themselves of CFS is almost like an accidental microcosm of what "healthy" people experience when deliberately detoxing.

As I have started to ramp up my Methylation processes and am dumping metals,I started to get white spots again on my Nails....for me this indicates Zinc deficiency, so have upped the Zinc to 50mg per day..... This produced and even greater metal dump, as Zinc displaces Lead, and is needed for making Metallothionine, which further helps with metal removal. My scientific research studies have one patient in them.....me!

 

[Milford]

Can't prove it but I think methylation does cause detox, and also that detox is a huge part of symptoms for most people doing methylation.

Stands to reason that when you rev up your metabolism and it starts kicking out garbage that has been stagnating for goodness knows how long, we get sick.

Problem is compounded when the body starts "using up" minerals and nutrients (potassium, methylfolate, B12's, magnesium, zinc, etc.) during the kick-start that are in short supply. These minerals and nutrients are needed in larger supply for increased metabolism, as well as even for healthy people when detoxing, so sick people kick-starting methylation after suffering from poor metabolism for years may be getting a double-whammy of deficiency. The problem is sticking with it long enough, and figuring out your own specific deficiencies/nutrient ratios well enough to detox enough to feel better. It seems like it's so hard for a lot of people.

Of course I'm not a science geek, so again, can't prove this. It's just an idea based on years of experimenting with natural health and thinking over what myself and others have gone through when undertaking a deliberate detox. This board is really interesting because the symtpoms I read about here are when people are attempting to cure themselves of CFS is almost like an accidental microcosm of what "healthy" people experience when deliberately detoxing.

I have definitely had major issues with Potassium, Zinc and Magnesium being low as a result of start-up........ Now what about Manganese? I have tested low for this and understand it can also be an issue.......anyone know? And what would be symptoms attributed to low Mn?

 

[whodathunkit]

@Milford: LOL about your single-patient scientific studies. Me, too!

I don't know about manganese (I take a bit every day as a prophylactic against some deficiency), but as far as what chelates lead...try modified citrus pectin (MCP) if you haven't already. It's a fiber that's supposed to bind lead very well.

 

[Mary]

@Mary
I wasn't questioning either the accuracy or reliability of muscle testing (which certainly has limitations) or of any practitioner. My practitioner was pretty good too and seemed to help if I look at my progress in a certain way.
I do not doubt that this kind of treatment and like many others, most often than not give benefits, at least initially.
The key question however is what you said, why aren't we all cured?

xrunner - You did say in any earlier post that you thought muscle testing would hinder any chance of real recovery, which is why I responded how I did.

In any event, obviously muscle testing right now doesn't have all the answers, any more than traditional medicine does. But muscle testing has helped me more than any regular M.D. has. I think I would have been bedridden without my chiropractor. I think it's like any modality - a lot depends on who is doing it, how much they know and how competent they are. And I strongly believe that we patients have to educate ourselves as much as possible so we can more accurately judge the efficacy of any treatment, traditional or otherwise.

We seem to be, for the most part, lab experiments because no one knows what to do, no one has all the answers. Otherwise, yes, we'd all be cured. Someone on another board posted how he was helped so much by upping his folate, it was helping with his crashes, so I thought, aha! I'll try that. And then boom! I'm still recovering. Muscle testing didn't tell me to up my folate but it helped figure out what happened when I did.

I seem to be learning a lot if nothing else .....

 

[Milford]

@Milford: LOL about your single-patient scientific studies. Me, too!

I don't know about manganese (I take a bit every day as a prophylactic against some deficiency), but as far as what chelates lead...try modified citrus pectin (MCP) if you haven't already. It's a fiber that's supposed to bind lead very well.

Thanks...... I have some MCP but have lost the habit of using it recently...will start again !

 

[whodathunkit]

@Mary: please try not to be discouraged. My motto is now three steps forward and two steps back is still a net gain of a step. Even though high-dose methylfolate (along with LCF, adB12, mB12, etc.) has helped me immensely, and even though I know I was not as sick as some around here, I'm still very much a work in progress. It was a bit disheartening at first because the first time I felt great with methylfolate I thought maybe I was "cured", but any gain is a good gain so I'm philosophical now that it will happen if I just don't give up. Hope you feel the same.

I think what we're doing here (and particularly what @Freddd has contributed with the donut hole/paradoxical methylfolate deficiency theory) with methylation supps is really ground-breaking stuff. We're on the cutting edge. In 10 years it's going to be mainstream, and these supplements, muscle testing, personalized dosages, self-experimentation with the aid of a health practioner, self-education, etc., will be the norm. As a civilization/culture we're moving beyond the one-dosage fits all paradigm (hate that buzzy '90's word but sometimes it fits, LOL) and back into the realm of personalized healing that was more the norm back before the Industrial Revolution. The Industrial Revolution gave us hope of simpler, more cookie-cutter-like solutions to all of man's biggest problems, including health and death. But ihis approach plainly did not solve our problems and in fact created new ones, so we're rapidly moving beyond that now. Those of us who have been unfortunate in the past to live on the tail of the snake are now fortunate that we can see the head coming to eat itself. We've seen it coming for a while. IMHO we're actually now ahead of the game, if we can only keep it in perspective.

 

[sregan]

Thanks Caledonia - I hope you're right, that I don't have much mercury left. I did a couple of months worth of a mercury detox using dmsa and Andy Cutler's protocol several months ago. But this week, the detox symptoms were so strong. I haven't taken any folate for 3 days, have had major detox symptoms for 6 days, but do feel like the worst is over. I've been taking the Spanish black radish and also took some charcoal today.

Mary, I believe I also have a Mercury burden (I've had 10+ mercury fillings in my mouth from childhood. Had the last 2 removed a couple years ago).

Was wondering if just backing off the MFolate (while maintaining MB12) is best for slowing down the methylation for those with mercury? The last time I tried the SMP and only took MFolate and MB12 (of the quartet) I got in a bad way. I was trying everything to help myself feel better. I found taking MB12 without the Mfolate helped so I was taking that along with minerals. I have 2 MTRR+/+ so that may have something to do with an increased need for MB12. Maybe the detox needs MB12 also?

 

[musicchick581]

What is the link with low potassium and MTHFR? I just found out my blood levels are good but the lowest end of good.

 

[musicchick581]

Also, if you are detoxing, can that raise hair heavy metal levels?
And what is the order of heavy metals that you detox?
I have high aluminum and have for years. Silica in Fiji water is supposed to help but after a couple months on it, my hair levels were still very high.
Also have mercury and lead I'd like to remove. No clue where it could be coming from.

 

[Mary]

@Mary: please try not to be discouraged. My motto is now three steps forward and two steps back is still a net gain of a step. Even though high-dose methylfolate (along with LCF, adB12, mB12, etc.) has helped me immensely, and even though I know I was not as sick as some around here, I'm still very much a work in progress. It was a bit disheartening at first because the first time I felt great with methylfolate I thought maybe I was "cured", but any gain is a good gain so I'm philosophical now that it will happen if I just don't give up. Hope you feel the same.

I think what we're doing here (and particularly what @Freddd has contributed with the donut hole/paradoxical methylfolate deficiency theory) with methylation supps is really ground-breaking stuff. We're on the cutting edge. In 10 years it's going to be mainstream, and these supplements, muscle testing, personalized dosages, self-experimentation with the aid of a health practioner, self-education, etc., will be the norm. As a civilization/culture we're moving beyond the one-dosage fits all paradigm (hate that buzzy '90's word but sometimes it fits, LOL) and back into the realm of personalized healing that was more the norm back before the Industrial Revolution. The Industrial Revolution gave us hope of simpler, more cookie-cutter-like solutions to all of man's biggest problems, including health and death. But ihis approach plainly did not solve our problems and in fact created new ones, so we're rapidly moving beyond that now. Those of us who have been unfortunate in the past to live on the tail of the snake are now fortunate that we can see the head coming to eat itself. We've seen it coming for a while. IMHO we're actually now ahead of the game, if we can only keep it in perspective.

Yes, we do seem to be on the cutting edge - I think our problem is not to get sliced (ouch!) by the edge ... You do have a good motto. I am better off than I was 5 years ago. It can get disheartening though. But I'm better off than many people - I'm not bedridden although I have to monitor my activity very carefully to avoid crashing. I do think traditional medicine is being dragged kicking and screaming into an era more about learning how the body heals and properly workd instead of managing symptoms (and creating more by symptoms!) by just handing out drugs, and the patients are leading the way (thank God (or Al Gore? ) for the Internet!

I hope you're right -- well, it feels better anyways to be hopeful than otherwise, and who the heck knows!


Mary

 

[Mary]

Mary, I believe I also have a Mercury burden (I've had 10+ mercury fillings in my mouth from childhood. Had the last 2 removed a couple years ago).

Was wondering if just backing off the MFolate (while maintaining MB12) is best for slowing down the methylation for those with mercury? The last time I tried the SMP and only took MFolate and MB12 (of the quartet) I got in a bad way. I was trying everything to help myself feel better. I found taking MB12 without the Mfolate helped so I was taking that along with minerals. I have 2 MTRR+/+ so that may have something to do with an increased need for MB12. Maybe the detox needs MB12 also?

You very well could be right about backing off on the mfolate for slowing down methylation. That's what I'm doing right now. I had done just dandy on 1600 mcg. a day for 4 years but when I I doubled it, whew! Totally took me by surprise.

I do take, and have been taking for a very long time, MB12, and I didn't notice any benefit from taking it, but kept taking it because my hair analysis levels were just about undetectable, no matter how much I took, whether sublingual or by injection. But when I started methylfolate about 4 years ago I had a very noticeable increase in energy. It was great, and I stayed at that dose - 1600 mcg. a day - for 4 years, together with the MB12. The serious detoxing didn't start until I doubled the methylfolate to 3200 mcg.

I think we're all lab experiments and have to just see what works. And so it seems for you that taking MB12 without the folate helped you, whereas I felt better with the MB12 and folate (but not the higher dose of folate)

I wish there was an easier way, that it wasn't all hit and miss, but at least we do have some signposts, and again, thank goodness for the Internet!

Mary