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Methylfolate and mercury detoxing

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
@pone - thanks for all the tips re the tests- very good information! I'll keep it in mind. Did you do the test and if so, what were your results?

I did separate blood, hair, and urine tests, from different manufacturers. All of those put me above the 95% for mercury. I now want to cycle back and do the Tri-Test - which I only learned about this month - because it will help pinpoint which disposal system(s) are not working.

My crashing, PEM, sounds different than yours. I don't get brain fog or fast breathing - it's a complete loss of energy, and if I try to push myself to do something while crashed, the exhaustion is even worse. I will start to get achy and tired the night before and by morning the backs of my legs will be aching and by late morning it's generally full-blown. It's a long story but have found that branched chain amino acids lessen the duration of the crash. Sometime I'll do a post on this.

The description of achy and tired is actually not so different than what I experience. We are using different words and focusing on different aspects of it. I feel an ache too, but I perceive this is secondary to something else that weakens the muscle.

Try to sodium bicarb, and use ph paper to measure alkalinity of your urine. This gives you an objective way to see if you are over alkalizing yourself. Report back after you try this. I am guessing there is a very good chance we can cut down the amount of time of your crash by half, as well as reduce intensity during the active crash phase.

Baking soda costs a few dollars. ph paper on Amazon costs $11:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002ZYVU4O
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
@pone - I'm afraid I'm skeptical about acidity being a factor in crashing, but ---- you never know -- and so I'll give the baking soda a try - thanks!

Pretty low risk, low cost, nothing to lose. Send feedback after you try it.
 

shah78

Senior Member
Messages
168
Location
st pete , florida
That is NOT Cutler's protocol. Cutler's protocol includes methylation support prior to amalgam removal, so it is exactly what you describe as your end point. Then Cutler suggests about three months of low dose oral DMSA. ONLY THEN does Cutler recommend ALA.

Cutler specifically recommends that you do NOT start with ALA. ALA crosses the blood brain barrier, and starting with ALA if you are high in mercury in the blood means you will pass even more mercury into the brain, making your symptoms even worse.

Where did you ever get the idea that Cutler recommends start chelation with ALA?
Amazingly, I got the idea from ........(wait).........Cutler! You are partially correct. Wait till after amalgam removal, chelate with dmsa or dmps, OR NOT...... and then chelate with ALA after three months. dmsa or dmps is optional. He says this hundreds of times in his books, face book pages and google group.
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
Amazingly, I got the idea from ........(wait).........Cutler! You are partially correct. Wait till after amalgam removal, chelate with dmsa or dmps, OR NOT...... and then chelate with ALA after three months. dmsa or dmps is optional. He says this hundreds of times in his books, face book pages and google group.

So then how am I partially correct? This is exactly what I said.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
This afternoon I went to see my muscle-testing chiropractor and voila! my toxin point was very strong and what came up was mercury. So it appears that somehow the increased folate released mercury that had been stored in my body tissues (the testing indicated tissues in general).

"Muscle testing" aka applied kinesiology is pseudoscientific nonsense, so you cannot rely on any information that comes from such testing.
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
"Muscle testing" aka applied kinesiology is pseudoscientific nonsense, so you cannot rely on any information that comes from such testing.

I would be more generous than that. I would say muscle testing might be suggestive of something, but it certainly is never diagnostic. If the practitioner said she has a mercury issue, that would be a good motivator to get real mercury testing done and see if it confirms.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
I would be more generous than that. I would say muscle testing might be suggestive of something

Well the actual evidence shows that applied kinesiology is no better than random guesses at determining any health related information about a patient.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
Well the actual evidence shows that applied kinesiology is no better than random guesses at determining any health related information about a patient.

That hasn't been my experience. Several times I've been helped by muscle testing when the doctors were clueless. I don't know what actual evidence you're talking about here. I stumbled across muscle testing after being sick for 7 years with NO help from the doctors. This was in the early l990's. I came across this chiropractor, the charge was $50 - what did I have to lose? My health was in the toilet, mainstream medicine was useless - and the muscle testing showed some digestive issues no one had picked up before, the supplements the chiro gave me helped a lot, and once I was pointed in the right direction I was able to start doing my own research too. and later he helped me when my adrenals were wiped out, again not picked up by the doctors. I gave the doctors every opportunity to help me and they were not up to the task. So in my experience the actual evidence is that mainstream medicine is pretty darn ineffectual, and very often harmful (toxic drugs).

Doctors resisted the idea of hand washing when it was first introduced. Proponents of antiseptic procedures were vilified, even though 10s of 1000s of women were dying every year in childbirth because doctors would go from working on diseased cadavers to delivering babies without washing their hands, but the medical establishment "knew" that hand washing was just a crazy wacko idea.

So mainstream medicine resists any ideas which do not conform to its orthodoxy, and that's too bad. Most often it says something is not worth investigating because they "know" without truly investigating that something can't work (just like hand washing). It's is really too bad. We still have barbaric treatments for cancer, no real cures for autoimmune illness and anything that works on restoring health (as opposed to giving drugs to mask symptoms) is called "alternative", as though true health is somehow not quite legitimate. It's truly bizarre.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
I don't know what actual evidence you're talking about here.

Well for example this study which found applied kinesiology unreliable for assessing nutrient status. Or this study to see if applied kinesiology could detect intolerance to dental materials (it couldn't). Or this study to see if applied kinesiology could detect and differentiate between toxic substances and benign substances (it couldn't). Or this study to see if kinesiology could detect food intolerances (it couldn't).

However, applied kinesiology did appear to have some successes: this study found that applied kinesiology was able to detect with 90% accuracy food allergies that a person had. And this study found that applied kinesiology showed some ability to diagnose thyroid dysfunction.


I gave the doctors every opportunity to help me and they were not up to the task.

When you say the doctors were not up to the task: have you been to see any of the top ME/CFS specialists?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
Pretty low risk, low cost, nothing to lose. Send feedback after you try it.

@pone - It works! The baking soda helped a lot with my latest crash. I am just amazed that after 16 years of crashing this is the first time I've heard of this. I took 1/2 tsp. in about 4 oz. of water on an empty stomach 3 times yesterday plus a couple of times today and it made a huge difference in the duration and intensity of my crash as you had predicated - whew!

I may experiment with it to use it BEFORE I have to do an activity that may lead to a crash to see if it helps prevent one. I've been reading it helps athletes with their performance. I've long known that lactic acid was a factor in a crashing but didn't know there was anything that could be done about it.

Thank you so much!

Mary
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
Well for example this study which found applied kinesiology unreliable for assessing nutrient status. Or this study to see if applied kinesiology could detect intolerance to dental materials (it couldn't). Or this study to see if applied kinesiology could detect and differentiate between toxic substances and benign substances (it couldn't). Or this study to see if kinesiology could detect food intolerances (it couldn't).

However, applied kinesiology did appear to have some successes: this study found that applied kinesiology was able to detect with 90% accuracy food allergies that a person had. And this study found that applied kinesiology showed some ability to diagnose thyroid dysfunction.




When you say the doctors were not up to the task: have you been to see any of the top ME/CFS specialists?

@Hip - I don't want to get into a debate with you about the efficacy of muscle testing but will make a few comments. It's interesting that you found 2 studies showing positive outcomes for AK (as well as 4 studies showing nothing) so there is clinical evidence that it can be more effective than random guessing.

I will guess that AK has not been the subject of very many studies. From my own experience, the ability of practitioners varies. Also, the frame of mind of the practitioner and quite possibly the patient's as well, can affect the outcome. Ideally this would not happen, but that's the way it is. AK is not a perfect science. It's not like a standard blood test which theoretically would be identical no matter which lab performed it, although I believe there is variation from lab to lab.

I'm not recommending muscle testing as a substitute for blood work and other standardized testing. However, in my experience it has been an extremely powerful adjunct to traditional medicine. It helped me with weak adrenals, a toxic liver, inflamed gallbladder - it helped save my gallbladder. It was most effective for me with adrenal and digestive issues. Again, the doctors did not pick up these issues. At one time a glass of wine would leave me sick for an entire day, and 2 glasses would make me sick for 3 days. I understand that alcohol intolerance is very common with CFS. Well, muscle testing showed my liver was overloaded with toxins. I did a liver detox under my chiropractor's supervision 12 years ago, and my digestion improved enormously and I can tolerate wine now like a normal healthy person. I also take milk thistle and discovered I needed to take HCL with meals, especially those high in protein. I no longer have gallbladder problems, again a common CFS malady.

It would be interesting to see more studies.

I haven't seen any of the top ME/CFS specialists, although I did have mitochondrial testing done by Sarah Myhill 4-1/2 years ago. It showed definite mitochondrial problems, I followed her protocol (except for magnesium injections which my doctor would not do). Actually she is one of the top CFS specialists. I live in California so we did it all by FedEx.

I've since made more progress using Freddd's B12/folate protocol. And lately have been working with Kimsie via messaging, based on Nutreval testing I had done 4-1/2 years ago also. There were things my functional medicine doctor did not pick up on at that time which are now being addressed (including low B6, low glycine and low BCAAs). Taking BCAAs the last 8 weeks has shortened the duration of my crashes and now I have just learned from pone that baking soda helps with PEM too! It's amazing - it really does help.
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
@pone - It works! The baking soda helped a lot with my latest crash. I am just amazed that after 16 years of crashing this is the first time I've heard of this. I took 1/2 tsp. in about 4 oz. of water on an empty stomach 3 times yesterday plus a couple of times today and it made a huge difference in the duration and intensity of my crash as you had predicated - whew!

RUN DO NOT WALK to Amazon and buy a conductivity meter:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038QTQZ8

And at that price you might want to buy a second one for the car to have on trips.

The reason this is important is it is doing an implicit measurement of electrolyte levels in your urine, which you then use as a guide to how much water you drink, and how much sodium bicarb and potassium bicarb you take.

The risk you now run is that you will start taking too much sodium and you will end up with very high electrolyte levels, possibly dehydrated. Aim on the conductivity meter to stay between 4000 and 5000. Above 5000 you need to dilute your electrolytes and drink water (that is the signal for dehydration). Below 4000 you need to start taking more electrolyte.

The body should self-regulate these things, but part of my disease was that it did NOT! The conductivity meter is a true life saver in helping me to see when I am extremely dehydrated.

Also buy some pH paper and test your urine and saliva every time you pee:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002ZYVU4O

I have frequently found acidity before I feel symptoms and I can pretreat it now.

Be sure to take the bicarb at least one hour BEFORE meals or TWO hours AFTER meals. NEVER mix with food. It will get neutralized by stomach acid and make your stomach produce a lot more acid to digest food.

Once you get things dialed in, consider buying some potassium bicarb and take up to about 300 mg of elemental potassium per drink. Potassium and sodium should be in a balance, but too much potassium at once is quite dangerous, so keep the doses low. As a nice side effect, there is very good research literature suggesting that potassium bicarb will spare bone and help to fight osteoporosis. To fight the acidity in your blood, your body has been eating its bone in order to get the bicarb on the bone!!


I may experiment with it to use it BEFORE I have to do an activity that may lead to a crash to see if it helps prevent one. I've been reading it helps athletes with their performance. I've long known that lactic acid was a factor in a crashing but didn't know there was anything that could be done about it.

In my experience that does work well. Post your experience about this when you have more data.

Thank you so much!

I cannot tell you how much time and reflection was required for me to discover that bicarb would clear my symptoms. It took me MANY MONTHS of agony with my symptoms to finally deduce that the sensation I was feeling in my muscles was in fact the result of an acidity. I had some important clues, but I just wasn't smart enough to put it all together quickly. I went through months of taking just salt, then taking a mixed electrolyte, then taking alkaline solutions like sodium bicarb mixed with lemon or vinegar. Those all helped but ultimately experimentation showed me that nothing cleared the symptom as rapidly as bicarb.

Spread the word to others. I think anyone who suffers from true CFS and gets the hallmark "post-exertional malaise" should benefit from this.

Please understand that my treatment is NOT a cure for anything. We are treating a symptom, not a cause.

The reason CFS sufferers have this issue is that their aerobic metabolism is broken. They are not using oxygen with fat or glucose to create energy, but instead they are strongly favoring glycolysis. Glycolysis is what creates intense acidity in the muscle, even with low levels of exertion. You should be using glycolysis only during intense exercise, like during the 10 seconds of a sprint. I believe I was using glycolysis even during a brisk walk.

I did additional testing in my case that established clearly that my body was converting to glycolysis at low exercise thresholds. I went to Dr Frank Shallenberger's exercise physiology lab in Nevada and found that I went to full on glycolysis at only 120 beats per minute. That's a very LOW level of activity at which to convert to glycolysis, and I'm an athletic person my whole life. That to me gave a clear test result indicating something was very broken in my metabolism.

I had additional testing that suggested my body was in a highly reduced state and that my NAD+/NADH ratio was very low. I found a famous research scientist who gave me formulas for approximating these values from measurable metabolites. I worked with a local biochemist to reason out that the probable cause of the NAD+/NADH ratio was an inefficient electron transport chain. We suspected from this that something was attacking the cell membranes of my mitochondria.

Once I knew my electron transport chain was probably limping, I started looking for diseases that would affect the mitochondria. That's when I started to get high mercury test results back, and everything began to come together at that point. Mercury may or may not be the cause of my disease, but it is the only hypothesis I could find that literally explains every major symptom associated with classical CFS.

Mercury explains most strongly the damaging of the cell membrane and functions that take place there like the electron transport chain. It explains the derangement of enzymes and proteins that then result in huge numbers of secondary effects on metabolism. It explains the huge levels of oxidative stress, which together with getting older and losing your antioxidant levels inside the cell, results in tremendous amounts of oxidative damage.

And - the key thing - is I did take actions during the month I came down this disease that would affect mercury. I took ALA in very high doses, irregularly spaced. That may have moved mercury into the brain, explaining my neurological symptoms, and into the heart tissue, explaining my cardiac rhythm disturbances.

I'm running with that diagnosis: CFS by mercury toxicity. The sodium bicarb keeps me functioning until I get the mercury cleared. I'm on a boatload of supplements that are basically life support against mercury.
 
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Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
@pone - I'm going to go over your reply more thoroughly when I have more energy, about how energy is produced, the various testing you've done, etc., it's really very interesting, and also very interesting that you are coming up with mercury toxicity as the cause of your CFS. I've pretty much come to the same conclusion but was feeling rather hopeless about it because detoxing has been so difficult for me. However, because of your recommendation, I am going to get the Quicksilver Mercury tri test done after the New Year. Karen of Quicksilver told me the Quicksilver lab will be closed I think from Christmas until 1/5/15, so will be doing the testing shortly thereafter. And then, depending on the results, I think there's a good chance that they will recommend the IMD for me. Yes, it's very expensive, but if it does the job, will be worth it.

You may know this already but you can find a practitioner either through the Quicksilver website or you can just call them and they'll give you the names of people in your area who do the testing.

I already take a lot of potassium - have started drinking low-sodium V8 which has 900 mg. of potassium in an 8 oz.glass, and I drink 2 glasses a day, as well as taking a little potassium gluconate. But you think potassium bicarbonate would be better? My potassium levels have been pretty good since I started the V8. When I tried raising them using potassium gluconate alone, it didn't work that well.

I will get a conductivity meter - my Christmas present! :nerd:

I'm on a boatload of supplements too. They keep me functioning at a rather low level, but it's better than without them.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
It's interesting that you found 2 studies showing positive outcomes for AK (as well as 4 studies showing nothing) so there is clinical evidence that it can be more effective than random guessing.

Well sort of. Thyroid hormone level abnormalities and allergies are known to cause changes in muscle tone or strength, so it's perhaps not surprising that by feeling a patient's muscle strength or weakness, an applied kinesiology practitioner could surmise that there was a problem with thyroid hormones or an allergen exposure. So there may be some use in applied kinesiology for allergy testing (provided of course that the allergens are introduced into the body, not just held in the patient's hand inside glass containers, which just won't work).

However, the studies showed that applied kinesiology could not detect food intolerances, nutritional deficiencies or toxic materials.

@pone - It works! The baking soda helped a lot with my latest crash. I am just amazed that after 16 years of crashing this is the first time I've heard of this. I took 1/2 tsp. in about 4 oz. of water on an empty stomach 3 times yesterday plus a couple of times today and it made a huge difference in the duration and intensity of my crash as you had predicated - whew!

You may be interested in a new thread here, which discusses the use of bicarbonate, as well as catalase, Q10 and creatine as crash / PEM preventing supplements.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
However, the studies showed that applied kinesiology could not detect food intolerances, nutritional deficiencies or toxic materials.

I understand that that's what a couple of studies showed. I don't find a couple of studies to be conclusive evidence. I think a lot more research needs to be done. The studies could very well have been flawed, the outcomes are affected by both practitioners and patients, there are so many variables, and my own experience has shown me otherwise. For years scientists believed that there was no way the bumblebee should be able to fly, it flouted all known rules of aerodynamics, until, of course, science caught up with reality, and I strongly suspect something very similar may be occurring here.

Thanks for the link re the new thread - I will check it out!
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
my own experience has shown me otherwise.
But what are your standards for evidence? For example, the applied kinesiology practitioner you see examines your muscles, and exclaims that you have a mercury issue, and then in this thread this is stated as if it were a fact.

Unless you compare the diagnoses of applied kinesiology against standard tests (eg, a blood test for mercury), you cannot gauge the accuracy of applied kinesiology.
 
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Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,377
Location
Southern California
But what are your standards for evidence? For example, the applied kinesiology practitioner you see examines your muscles, and exclaims that you have a mercury issue, and then in this thread this is stated as if it were a fact.

@Hip - I'm not going to debate this. I've had so many detox experiences which sound exactly like mercury toxicity. The muscle test just confirmed what I was experiencing. I didn't start out with muscle testing because I believed in it. I had no idea if it would work or not but for $50 I was willing to give it a try, after 7 years of NO HELP FROM ANYONE. And no, I didn't seen any CFS specialists in the early 1990's because no one (including me) knew what was wrong with me. And the muscle testing helped me on many occasions (I've listed a few above), so it wasn't a matter of standards of evidence. It was just I found that something that helped me - it was that simple.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
@Mary
I would suggest your past treatment successes just came from random trial and error. I have found that the best thing you can do with ME/CFS is to try out as many drug and supplement protocols as you can, because you will find many that help. If you don't venture to try them, you will never learn which ones work for you. All the beneficial treatments I found for myself were a result of trying many things. So even if the statements of applied kinesiologists are just purely random ones, if these statements get you to try out some new protocols, then that is a good thing, because it provides the opportunity to serendipitously discover a good treatment.