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My new autonomic cardiologist wants to hospitalize me for tests!!!

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
zzz said:

Midodrine is rather benign; about the worst reaction you get from it (assuming you take the prescribed dose) is what you experienced. Even the two people known to have taken major overdoses of it were treated and were fine the next day.

From my experience, I can't quite agree with that. I used to spend a lot of time on dysautonomia boards and a number of people had life-threatening reactions to midodrine--including me. It is very safe for most but then for those who react to it, it is quite unsafe.

@Sushi, I obviously have to defer to your experience (and that of the other people you mention). I was going by the prescribing information, which paints a rather different picture. Its most serious warning is of "marked elevation of supine arterial blood pressure", and notes that the worst cases of this "were most likely to be observed in patients with relatively elevated pre-treatment systolic blood pressures (mean 170 mmHg)". Later, it says:
Supine hypertension can often be controlled by preventing the patient from becoming fully supine, i.e., sleeping with the head of the bed elevated. The patient should be cautioned to report symptoms of supine hypertension immediately. Symptoms may include cardiac awareness, pounding in the ears, headache, blurred vision, etc. The patient should be advised to discontinue the medication immediately if supine hypertension persists.

The term "life-threatening" is used once in the PI, but it's in the section on overdosage:
The single doses that would be associated with symptoms of overdosage or would be potentially life-threatening are unknown.

This seems to strongly imply that the makers of the drug had never seen life-threatening reactions, especially at recommended dosage levels. However, I've read the prescribing information for enough drugs to know that side effects are often underestimated (or simply not listed) in the PI, so I would certainly rely on your experience over the description in the PI. I would never have called this drug "rather benign" if I knew that it could cause life-threatening reactions at normal dosages.

This brings up an important point that I didn't cover in my last post, namely that the prescribing information may on occasion be incomplete. There's no single, definitive source for finding side effects that are not listed in the prescribing information, although Googling for "<drug name> side effects" will turn up a lot of hits. The accuracy of that information varies, though. I have found that the best additional information is often found at reputable user sites, such as PR.

@Sushi, I would like to understand this drug better, especially since the prescribing information appears to be incomplete, and I'm sure that such information would be appreciated by others as well. Could you please describe the symptoms that you and others found life-threatening? Do you know of anyone who died from taking this medication, or who would have died without medical intervention?

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In my last post, I promised to describe some treatments that are effective at relieving dyspnea (shortness of breath). None of them are curative of course, but many times they can temporarily relieve the symptoms completely. The second and third treatments have the advantage that they are both rather long lasting.

The first treatment is simple and very well known; it's simply water plus electrolytes. Variations on this treatment are described in the thread Curing Chronic fatigue - the role of water and salt..? None of these variations are a cure, but they can be very helpful. What I have found works best is the combined advice from a few CFS specialists. As I think everyone knows, water by itself is insufficient; it must be accompanied at least by salt. @xchocoholic said, "Any salt works for me." As long as you're talking about table salt vs. iodized salt vs. sea salt, etc., that's true. But it must be sodium chloride, as it's the sodium that's required to maintain blood volume and blood pressure. Other salts, such as potassium chloride, will not work here.

A full electrolyte supplement is even better. Some people drink Gatorade, but it has the major drawback that it contains sugar, and you don't want to be pouring lots of sugar into your body all day long. The best electrolyte supplement I have found is Saltstick. It contains a mixture of sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium. I take one of these capsules a day, plus an extra one for every quart (liter) of water that I drink.

As to how much water you should drink, there's no set amount. Some of the best advice I've seen is that if your mouth and lips are dry, you should drink some water. (This assumes that you aren't taking any medication that dries out your mouth.) Other useful advice I follow is that early in the day, you should "load up" with water; basically drink as much as you feel comfortable drinking (at least a couple of glasses), along with some salt or electrolytes. Combining all of this works very well for me. If I notice I'm feeling unusually weak, then my mouth is usually dry, although I don't notice that first. Drinking one or more glasses of water usually makes a big difference.

The second treatment is D-ribose, or just ribose for short. Those people who have read the various ribose threads on PR undoubtedly have noticed that there are many people who benefit from ribose, some who experience no effect at all, and some who have a negative reaction to it. I am one of those who had a positive reaction to it, and as the positive reaction can be very significant, as it has been with me, I think it's worth a try. I found that a starting dose of 10 gm per day, moving up to 15 gm per day (5 gm at each meal) after about a week seems to work well for most people who tolerate ribose. I have also noticed that if my energy is particularly low, at which point I may get some dyspnea symptoms, taking about half a gram of ribose, which I generally just take straight, will boost my energy rather quickly and get rid of any dyspnea.

The third treatment is either Provigil or Nuvigil, depending on your body and your insurance company. As with ribose, there are many people who benefit from Provigil or Nuvigil, some who experience no effect at all, and some who have a negative reaction to these drugs. The negative reactions are not serious. The two drugs are basically mirror images of each other chemically, but they have slightly different properties. Both drugs increase alertness, cognition, and energy. One of the ways they help in energy creation is by aiding in the creation of ATP in the mitochondria. Dr. Goldstein has called Provigil "neuroprotective"; Nuvigil had not been released when his book was written, but as the drugs work by essentially identical mechanisms, this is most likely true of Nuvigil as well. Both drugs require a prescription from your doctor.

The main difference between the two drugs is that Nuvigil lasts longer than Provigil. However, I took Provigil for over eight years and found it lasted all day for me. (I don't know if I'm typical of PWME here or not.) Many people have found that a morning dose of Provigil wears off in the middle of the day, and they need to take a second dose; for these people, Nuvigil may be a better choice. Although Provigil does not have many negative side effects, Nuvigil has somewhat fewer side effects than Provigil, and therefore may be tolerated by some people who can't tolerate Provigil. Specifically, Nuvigil lacks the side effects of back pain, nervousness, stuffy nose, diarrhea, anxiety, and upset stomach that Provigil sometimes has. Of those side effects, I experienced only nervousness and anxiety, and those I experienced only when I took too much of the drug. Otherwise, when Provigil was working, it made me feel much closer to normal. I could actually take enough to feel completely normal for a day, but then I'd have insomnia, and have to cut back. However, this can be very useful if you have to travel long distances or otherwise do a lot in one day. Since Provigil and Nuvigil boost the mitochondrial ATP, doing proportionately more while taking them (based on your energy level) does not cause PEM. You can still overdo it, of course.

Insurance varies widely for these two drugs. Most insurance companies will now cover Provigil only if your doctor provides proof of narcolepsy. There is now a slightly cheaper, generic form of Provigil available; the insurance conditions for it, as well as for Nuvigil, vary. Most drugs (including the generic form of Provigil (modafinil)) tend to be way too expensive for most people without insurance. The price of generic modafinil will definitely be dropping over time, however.

@Gingergrrl, although I have written about these treatments in a rather general manner, the reason I am posting them here is that I know your dyspnea and related weakness are the most disabling part of your ME/CFS. These three treatments have been extremely beneficial to me and many others specifically for these symptoms, and I am fairly sure that you will find at least one of these treatments beneficial to you.
 
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zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
I just did an internet search for 'midodrine mortality' and got several hits, including this one.

I just did the same search and got plenty of hits too. However, the "mortality" in each one I checked either referred to the mortality of the underlying illness, or midodrine's effect in reducing mortality, such as, "Octreotide and midodrine improve renal function, reduce mortality, and bridge patients to liver transplantation." I found no sites that proved causality between midodrine and mortality, or even implied it.

As for the site you linked to, the data just show correlation, not causation. That's a computer-generated site that simply links events with medications. I gave up using it when it became clear that a causal relationship could not necessarily be inferred from its data.

As for the computer-generated nature of this site, it's rather obvious when you scroll down and see the question,:"Do you have Death while taking Midodrine Hydrochloride?" Even then, it says,
But further down, the computer's morbid sense of humor returns:

Get connected! Join a mobile support group:
- support group for people who take Midodrine hydrochloride and have Death
- support group for people who take Midodrine hydrochloride
- support group for people who have Death

So you see why I don't think this site's statistics can be taken seriously in terms of causality.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Eek, you guys are scaring me with the Midodrine and death links so I am skipping them for now!!! My new cardio is insistent that I need to give this med a fair try and yesterday my BP was 76/43. With the Midodrine I've had two readings where the top # reached 100 and bottom # either in 50's or 60's.

I will probably also be increasing Florinef and getting a prescription potassium pill. I already take Salt Stick and d-ribose every day (except not in hospital.). I really hope to go home today after the breathing tests. He wanted to increase the Midodrine but I convinced him that I need to stay at 2.5 mg for several weeks to adapt and when I do high doses too fast, it always fails.

I am also supposed to drink salt water and pedialite (sp?) in morning before I get out of bed and keep taking low dose Atenolol 1x day for tachycardia. I will have follow up appt with him in 2 wks. I am trying to remain calm and not get confused re: all the instructions.

Last night my two friends stayed with me at hospital until about 10 pm which was wonderful. One of them did a reiki technique, this EFT/tapping technique and a relaxation exercise with us and it was incredibly calming. I am going to try to do the techniques at home. They also brought me some really cool balloons!

I want to express my gratitude for my new cardio, my CFS doctor, my family & friends and all my new friends here on PR. You guys are amazing.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@zzz I wanted to thank you for your compliment in an earlier post you said that I write well and should write a book to document this whole experience to help others.

I like the idea but not really sure who would want to read it outside of you guys on PR? I follow everyone's story on here and laugh and cry with you guys b/c we are all in the same boat. But I am just a random person and can't imagine who would want to read my story in the general world?

I think the writers with CFS like Laura Hillenbrand and Toni Bernhard are exceptional beyond compare and very few can ever be in that league!

My dream is to get well enough to use my existing skills as an LCSW (social worker) to help people with CFS and other chronic illnesses. My best friend (who has epilepsy) is an occupational therapist and we dream up all these ideas of creating services for homebound people to get them to Dr appts, and get them all the care they need, but I am not well enough to execute anything right now which makes me sad.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
zzz said:
@Sushi, I would like to understand this drug better, especially since the prescribing information appears to be incomplete, and I'm sure that such information would be appreciated by others as well. Could you please describe the symptoms that you and others found life-threatening? Do you know of anyone who died from taking this medication, or who would have died without medical intervention?

I described my symptoms in an earlier post and, as this isn't a topic that @Gingergrrl wants to discuss here, let's leave if for another time or place. Just to add that my pre-midodrine BP was low--about 95/60.

Sushi
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
My BP right now on Midodrine is 90/55 so maybe this dose really is too low for me. I really cannot walk around b/c I am hooked up to heart monitors & IV's but I am sitting fully upright and ate breakfast so I thought my BP might go higher!

I wish they would come do the breathing tests so I could go home!!! My husband is here now so I am feeling better and I have a nice nurse today, too.
 

Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
@Gingergrrl I swear by midodrine I know some poeple have issues but As I read your plan I really think is very good and sound, so give it a chance. You can join dysautonomia international group and follow general protocols and ideas.

The way to know if midodrine is low in my case: I know for sure if I start with a HR of less than 110/70 I will have problems. I start passing out or experiencing presyncope at 90/60. When I stand I drop 30bpm. So Every morning I take my resting HR, when Is under 110/70 I know I need to adjust up.

Now, what I have discovered is that I can adjust BP with salt but it only masks the numbers, and I am as simptomatic as before so I prefere to keep track of midodrine+florinef for BP.

On bad days ( travel days, a few days before I get my period), I do up dose of midodrine by 10mg (by doctor instructions) for travel I take extra half a pill of florinef (I am at 0.15mg daily, I go up 0.2 for travel) + compression Full body.

I take one pedyalite a day but I have discover that potasium upsets my tommy eventually, so when that happens I do take breaks.

This is a bit input of my expierience w OI, as you learned to deal with CFS, you have to learn the ins and out of OI. and what works for you. Observe, take good notes, and trust your own observations, you will learn patterns. Good luck.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Inester7 thank you for the info and is the dysautonomia international group geared toward PWC's or for anyone with autonomic issues?

If I could get my BP to 110/70 like you said, I would be thrilled! I assume you meant BP when you said HR. My latest reading was 85/50 so I guess I really do need the Midodrine. My BP does not drop when I stand, it is just always low across the board and my HR raises too high when I stand unless I take the Atenolol.

I only take 1/4 pill of Florinef 0.025 mg so we will be increasing this too and I will be taking this huge Potassium supplement that is like a horse pill. We will be buying Pedialyte which I have never tried before.

I am hoping this plan gives me some symptom relief. I will be checking out of the hospital within the next hour.

As a side update, I was too weak and dizzy to do the breathing tests (I tried and failed!) so I may attempt them later at an outpatient appt.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
Eek, you guys are scaring me with the Midodrine and death links so I am skipping them for now!!!

Sorry! My last post was designed to dispel unnecessary worries in what I thought was a humorous way. It really wasn't an attempt to raise your blood pressure by scaring you. I'll just steer clear of that whole topic now.
@zzz I wanted to thank you for your compliment in an earlier post you said that I write well and should write a book to document this whole experience to help others.

You're welcome! I was quite sincere in my suggestion.
I like the idea but not really sure who would want to read it outside of you guys on PR? I follow everyone's story on here and laugh and cry with you guys b/c we are all in the same boat. But I am just a random person and can't imagine who would want to read my story in the general world?

Our lives and experiences are affected so much by this illness that we really live in a world that most people doesn't know exists. A good description of this in book form could be fascinating to many, many people. Few people know of the vast hole in the health system into which we have fallen.
I think the writers with CFS like Laura Hillenbrand and Toni Bernhard are exceptional beyond compare and very few can ever be in that league!

Very true. But you don't have to be like them, any more than every physicist has to be an Einstein. There are many good, successful authors who don't make the New York Times bestseller list.
My dream is to get well enough to use my existing skills as an LCSW (social worker) to help people with CFS and other chronic illnesses. My best friend (who has epilepsy) is an occupational therapist and we dream up all these ideas of creating services for homebound people to get them to Dr appts, and get them all the care they need...

This sounds quite wonderful too. The important thing is that you do what you love best.
but I am not well enough to execute anything right now which makes me sad.

You are still young, you are getting good care, and new discoveries are being made that will help us all. For example, I just came across the article Problems Standing? Studies Suggest Autoimmunity Causes Orthostatic Intolerance: Implications For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. You may have seen it (I'm a bit behind in my reading), but if not, in addition to the material mentioned in the title, the article mentions treatments for this condition that are in development and may be applicable to POTS within a few years. So hang in there - help is coming from many directions.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I am home now and incredibly tired but wanted to thank everyone for all your support in this thread while I was in the hospital and it really meant a lot to me.

It was hard to answer everything on my phone while there but I am going to go back through this thread tomorrow to see if I missed anything. It will be nice to sleep in my own bed tonight and not be woken up every few hours to check my vital signs LOL.
 

NK17

Senior Member
Messages
592
Sweet dreams in your own bed @Gingergrrl, I'm happy to hear you're safe and back home ;).
I managed to follow this thread rich of resources while nursing a catastrophic 2 months post CPET flare up, aka the flu of the century without fever.
We'll bounce back, probably not everybody at the same time, but we will :hug:.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@NK17 Thank you and I am so happy to be home! I am just relaxing and not even trying to unpack my suitcase or organize things yet. I am so sorry you have suffered so much post CPET and hope you are getting some rest tonight too. Thank you for all of your ongoing support. :hug:
 

WillowJ

คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl
Messages
4,940
Location
WA, USA
My dream is to get well enough to use my existing skills as an LCSW (social worker) to help people with CFS and other chronic illnesses. My best friend (who has epilepsy) is an occupational therapist and we dream up all these ideas of creating services for homebound people to get them to Dr appts, and get them all the care they need, but I am not well enough to execute anything right now which makes me sad.

That is a fantastic plan. :)

Regarding the book, lots of people buy books about people's life experiences. I think ours are more applicable to people with general chronic illnesses that some of us sometimes realize, although CFS or ME (however it's typically called in a given country) is definitely on the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.

But you have a positivism that would make the book interesting to even healthy people.

And you have a large capacity to express yourself in a way that is understandable and easy to relate to. It would be valuable to tell your story.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Eek, you guys are scaring me with the Midodrine and death links so I am skipping them for now!!! My new cardio is insistent that I need to give this med a fair try and yesterday my BP was 76/43. With the Midodrine I've had two readings where the top # reached 100 and bottom # either in 50's or 60's.

Sorry - I didn't mean to worry you. I didn't have time to look at the hits I got so don't know if they were significant/relevant or not.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@MeSci No worries and I actually did not look at any of the links! I am giving the low dose Midodrine a try for the next two weeks unless something unbearable happens.

I see my cardio for an appt in two weeks for a follow up appt. I also have to increase the Florinef, drink Pedialyte (yuck so far :depressed:) and take this huge Potassium pill which pharmacy was out of but ordered for me.

I am hoping for the best and no worries about the links!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
@MeSci I also have to increase the Florinef, drink Pedialyte (yuck so far :depressed:) and take this huge Potassium pill which pharmacy was out of but ordered for me.

I find that the unflavored Pedialite is much easier to drink. The big pharmacies all have their own generic brand of Pedialite. I don't drink it every day but keep it on hand for emergencies. It is also is much easier to drink cold.

Sushi
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Yeah, pedialyte sucks... Mix it with a juice, whatever you can tolerate. Put some ice, since everything on ice is better.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Sushi & @Kati, I agree the Pedialyte is pretty horrific and my husband bought me the cherry fruit punch flavor which sort of tastes like cough medicine and salt mixed together :vomit:. It was also warm when I drank it. But tomorrow I am going to mix the pedialyte with water and put ice in it.

But on a very positive note, I feel significantly better today and afraid to type this b/c don't want to jinx it. My BP was 102/62 (this is good for me) and I have been walking all over the house carrying things, took a shower, and do not feel fatigued or short of breath. I am taking 2.5 mg Midodrine and doubled my Florinef from 1/4 to 1/2 tablet. I also drank the Pedialyte and have been drinking Nuun. I am also on day 55 of Famvir so am hoping that everything together is helping.

I am scared though (a little :nervous:) b/c Sushi, you said that you had great results from my dose of Midodrine for two weeks and then had a horrible reaction so I am afraid this could happen to me, too.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
While they're doing a lung function test, they can (if prompted) add one for breathing muscle strength, which might be worthwhile if you feel that your lungs get tired (some ME patients do).

@WillowJ I am responding to an earlier post but wanted to ask you a follow-up question. Yesterday before I left the hospital they did try to do a breathing test on me (I assume it would measure muscle strength of my lungs?) but I was too weak and dizzy to even attempt it. I was asleep and they woke me up to try the test but my BP was really low at the time. I blew into the machine and it didn't even register!

They said I had to wear this clip on my nose so the breathing only came through my mouth but as soon as they put the clip on, I felt like I couldn't get any air and panicked. The technician was worried I could faint if I attempted the test (although I have never fainted in my life) so he canceled it. My cardio said it was okay and we could always try this test in the future as an outpatient.

I was wondering how you would interpret this as I know you have a lot of knowledge re: lung issues. On all the other tests (ventilation & perfusion scan, arterial blood gas test, etc, of my lungs were clear and numbers were normal.) Thanks in advance for any info.