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Sulfite/sulfate and ammonia questions

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@Vegas Hey Vegas, earlier in this thread about bifidobacteria, you said "take it slow. If you have intestinal permeability, the lower lymphatic vessels will become noticeably sore". Can you elaborate?

Did you notice this lymph swelling yourself-- I guess I'm asking, is it the lymph glands in the upper thigh/groin area you mean with this?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
What are those Garden of Life SBO, Violeta? Didn't identified them.


It's this:

http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/Digestive-Health/Primal-Defense.aspx

And I'm sorry, I got it wrong, they call it HSO. They used to refer to them as SBO.

I had to look up what HSO means.....homeostatic soil organisms. I guess that's just a fancy name for SBO.

All I can say is, they work. My sinuses feel better, and so does my gut.

If bifidobacteria works better on its own, I might have to slowly work my way off the garden of life HSO. They seem to contain something I need right now.
 

Hanna

Senior Member
Messages
717
Location
Jerusalem, Israel
Thanks Violeta. I used a quite similar product last week to try my firt probiotics culture (it was Primal Defense Ultra from Garden of Life). Multiple strained one, with many Lacto species though.The yoghurts were super tasty (creamy and ferm) but according to Vegas that may not be the best choice.
That is interesting that you got relief from it. Have you tried to culture it?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I did see that conversation. I have been trying to do the single species of bifido bacteria as Vegas recommends, but I'm having a hard time making edible yogurt out of it and I'm also not feeling too good while using it with milk.

I don't know if it's the milk bothering me or if the bifidobacteria is bothering me. Natren bifido factor is grown on garbanzo beans, I don't do well with beans.

With respect to the bifidobacteria made into yogurt, I will have to go back to square one. Does milk bother me, does Natren bifidobacteria bother me, does yogurt bother me even when it's made with bifidobacteria?

No, I haven't tried making yogurt from the Garden of Life probiotic. How did you do with it? Did it seem to affect you in any way?
 

Hanna

Senior Member
Messages
717
Location
Jerusalem, Israel
No, I haven't tried making yogurt from the Garden of Life probiotic. How did you do with it? Did it seem to affect you in any way?[/quote]
First, I have an old "SEB" yoghurt maker from the 80's.
I added the content of one capsule of "Primal Defense" to a goat milk yoghurt.and stirred; added gradually plain organic goat milk (3.6% fat) to the initial mixture in order to get one liter of yogurt.
Poured in the glass jars of the yoghurt maker and let 24 hours. The result was very yummy, ferm and pleasant texture.
I ate about 2 yoghurts a day (each one 125 ml), noticed slightly more gas in the gut,but without pain or discomfort. Bowels unchanged.
I don't know how a prolonged use of this multi-strained culture would affect me. I tries it only one week long. Everything was OK. I havn't tried with cow milk, as I was pretty untolerant.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
c630f26916274af430a7
@Vegas Hey Vegas, earlier in this thread about bifidobacteria, you said "take it slow. If you have intestinal permeability, the lower lymphatic vessels will become noticeably sore". Can you elaborate?

Did you notice this lymph swelling yourself-- I guess I'm asking, is it the lymph glands in the upper thigh/groin area you mean with this?

I'm not sure about your knowledge level of lymphatics, so I will give you a quick primer from what I can remember. The adjacent lymphatic vessels which "serve" the GI tract (mesenteric, femoral, and inguinal I believe would be primary ones) receive extracellular fluid that is exchanged in the peritoneum from the intestines. This fluid will be rich with dead cells that originate in the GI tract, including many components which are toxic and illicit an immune or inflammatory response, which are largely interconnected. There are pressure gradients between the lymphatic vessels and interstitial fluid that allows for the lymphatic vessels to be filled. This occurs via a process that involves a number of different kinetic mechanisms, but the point to understand is that once the fluid passes the epithelium of the lymphatic vessel, it stays inside the lymphatic system; the fluid does not pass back into the interstitial space.

Once inside the lymphatic system the flow is also unidirectional and there are bicuspid valves, which keep the fluid from flowing backward. The fluid gets moved by a number of forces including the contraction of skeletal muscle, and the contraction of the smooth muscle within the valves. Propulsion is also chemically mediated, and this is the important part, the force of these smooth muscle contractions inside the vessels is influenced by the adrenergic system but also by factors humoral immunity. What has been discovered, and something that I have never heard discussed on a message board, is that general inflammatory processes stimulate lymphatic drainage by increasing contractility, but this is not true for endotoxins,which have the opposite effect. Alternatively said, many of the toxins that are filtered through the lymphatic system have the effect of stimulating greater motility; however, the toxic components of gram-negative bacterial cell walls slow down the flow of lymphatic fluid. Endotoxins inhibit the flow of lymph fluid by descreasing the contractility.

The presence of endotoxins from the bowel is what I believe principally accounts for the lymphatic "stagnation" or lymph pain that many report. Many will never experience this because they do not "challenge" the bowels with the requisite organisms to displace gram negative pathogenic bacteria, their immunocompromised status inhibits any significant bacterial displacement, their intestinal permeability is minimal and the endotoxins remain in the bowel, or perhaps they just don't have an abundance of gram negative pathogens. One of the things I have been trying to do over the last year is find a better way to neutralize the endotoxins in the bowel, and I think this is where RS and SCFA's enter the picture.

One other thing to understand is that the lymphathic system is acting as a reservoir to process the endotoxins at a rate that the liver can handle. The lymphatic fluid is ultimately drained into systemic blood circulation where they will quickly be available to the liver. Keeping the lymphatic fluid, with all of the accumulated toxins, out of circulation is seemingly protective. In effect, the rate of propulsion limits the more robust effect that is going to occur if when the lymph fluid enters circulation and the liver cannot effectively process the endotoxins. This is where glutathione depletion occurs to a very large extent, I think. When GSH in the liver is so thoroughly oxidized there is little to export to the other tissues and muscles. (Of course there are issues of synthesis as well, but I see this as largely a protective response, and I am getting way off point).

You should know that the lymphatic network is not a static system, while the fluid is in place there are enzymatic reactions throughout the vessels and nodes that participate in neutralization of the toxins. Chemical process, principally hydrolase enzymes, participate in this chemical neutralization of LPS. These enzymes are one of the "antidotes" to LPS, however, hydrolysis is an energy dependent process. These enzymatic reactions are fueled by ATP, something those with chronic inflammatory illnesses don't have in abundance. Studies of LPS propulsion have also demonstrated that the endotoxins can remain in the vessels for weeks. I would venture a guess that many have experienced the effects of these endotoxins, but they don't realize it. They induce NOS and OS that produce fatigue, stimulate TNF-a and pro-inflammatory cytokines, cause irritability of muscle tissue, etc.

So, it sounds like you have some lymphatic pain or soreness in your groin/hip area. I experience soreness, which I assume relates to the inflammatory nature of the endotoxins, and pain caused by swelling when the propulsion of the lymphatic fluid slows down. Over time I have learned that if I experience painful lymph swelling in a node (I can't see swelling, I can only feel this) I have to put on the brakes and stop stimulating the immune response. That is, I am slowing down the displacement of pathogens. The pattern that I established is that when I use Bifidobacteria at sufficient concentrations (& the right strains), which colonizes the large intestine, I experience more prominent lymphatic symptoms in my lower extremities. The femoral and inguinal vessels which pass through the anterior thigh and groin are clearly effected, but I seem to experience more pain in my legs and feet. Conversely, when I take LAB, the lymphatic involvement more prominently involves the nodes along the outside of the rib cage up to the axilla. When you visualize the lymphatic network you can see how the distribution of vessels would be effected depending upon the segment of the GI tract that is involved. Stagnation resultant from small bowel lymphatic engagement would more directly effect those vessels in the trunk versus the distally located large intestines, which influences the groin, thighs, legs, etc, because if the propulsion adjacent to the lower intestine slows down, so does everything below it.

Some of the more reliable indicators of lymphatic involvement mediated by endotoxins are pain in the lymph node behind the knee and the node in the grove between the distal tibia/fibula (this is ST36 in accupuncture and is perhaps one of the most important accupressure points in Chinese Medicine). Also, sore spots along the left and right sides of the spinal column, and most acutely, soreness adjacent to the spine, on the left side just under the shoulder blade.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I would like to copy this to a forum for a specific issue, and it's not clear if the issue is caused by over or under stimulated immune response. First of all, do you mind if I copy it to another forum? And also, when you say blunting the immune response, are you referring to some of the autoimmune diseases where the immune system seems overactive?

And also:

p.s.--When patient's present with an acute abdomen, they commonly present with referred shoulder pain, but for some reason I am thinking it is more often the right shoulder, so the location might suggest whether this is intrabdominal inflammation or lymphatic contribution.

I most likely have both, or all three. The endotoxins most likely cause abdominal irritation, dirty lymphatics, and congested liver.

Thanks,
Violeta

That is fine.

Actually I am not speaking of classic autoimmunity in the way that you are thinking, although the humoral immune system is centrally involved. I am referring to the fact that endotoxins from the gut stimulate the immune system and I believe neutralization of these toxins in the bowel is a very high priority. We can subdue the immune activation to mitigate the adverse symptomatic response the immune response creates, but this doesn't get us any better in the long run. As I see it, the problem is not getting rid of the pathogen, but rather dealing with the effects that the displacement of the pathogen creates. We need better targeted immune stimulation that also participates in neutralization of the associated inflammatory response that ensues. Central to this is the idea that we must neutralize the endotoxins in the bowel and correct intestinal permeability so that the lymphatic and circulatory system are not so thoroughly engaged. T
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I've been wondering if the polysaccharides in reishi help in some way with correcting the bacterial environment of the gut. I've gotten so much help in so many different areas from reishi. I relooked it up the other day and there's lots of information saying the polysaccharides it contains are what provide the greatest amount of it's benefits. One of it's benefits is that it rebalances the immune system.

I have to go to work today, but I'll see if I can find something specifically linking it to bifidobacteria. The one good link I've seen so far is to a book that I don't feel like buying.

"Medicinal" mushrooms are good. Rich in beta glucans, which the Bifidobacteria will like.

Honestly, you mentioned glucomannan, which is probably pretty well utilized by Bifidobacteria as well, but I think you'd have to spend a bunch to get a significant impact. The potato starch seems to work very well.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I was feeling rather bad today, abdominal, brain, and sinus issues, so I took two Garden of Life SBO, and about 1/2 hour later my sinuses started to drain. What a relief. I don't know which way I'm going to go from here. I think they work better for me than yogurt, though.

Sorry to hear this. This is why I was somewhat reluctant to suggest certain Bifidobacterial strains because while they can displace organisms quite effectively, including those that I think will otherwise persist without shifting the "balance of power" in the lower intestinal tract, as I described above, this comes with a cost. I will need to suggest ways in which this can be made more tolerable..when I get a chance. I did not suggest that SBO's would have adverse consequences. I think they are helpful and should be maintained, they are simply not going to resolve the underlying dsybiosis. I would keep taking them, there is no mutual exclusivity. SBO's will have a significant effect on the metabolism of nitrogen. I haven't looked at Garden of Life, but most SBO's have a Bacillus strain,and others contain "denitrifican" species.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Sorry to hear this. This is why I was somewhat reluctant to suggest certain Bifidobacterial strains because while they can displace organisms quite effectively, including those that I think will otherwise persist without shifting the "balance of power" in the lower intestinal tract, as I described above, this comes with a cost. I will need to suggest ways in which this can be made more tolerable..when I get a chance. I did not suggest that SBO's would have adverse consequences. I think they are helpful and should be maintained, they are simply not going to resolve the underlying dsybiosis. I would keep taking them, there is no mutual exclusivity. SBO's will have a significant effect on the metabolism of nitrogen. I haven't looked at Garden of Life, but most SBO's have a Bacillus strain,and others contain "denitrifican" species.


I understand about the cost that comes with it, and the effect is definitely worth the cost, I just have to make sure that the effect I'm getting isn't from something else, such as raw milk. Raw milk comes with it's own bacteria, and I probably don't completely destroy them in the preboil of making yogurt, so when I get back down to normal inflammation, I'll try making it with pasteurized milk. Although first I should find out if milk bothers me; maybe inability to process all the calcium or the bacteria it contains overwhelms my system. (Pasteurized bothers me more than raw.) Or I can just use the bifidobacteria in some water. I don't know. I realize I'm in a subset of a subset, and thank you for being patient with me. That's good to know that you can take the SBO while taking the bifidobacteria.

I started taking some clay between meals yesterday to absorb toxins in the bowel, maybe that will help.

Thanks, Vegas, I appreciate your help.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
c630f26916274af430a7


I'm not sure about your knowledge level of lymphatics, so I will give you a quick primer from what I can remember. The adjacent lymphatic vessels which "serve" the GI tract (mesenteric, femoral, and inguinal I believe would be primary ones) receive extracellular fluid that is exchanged in the peritoneum from the intestines. This fluid will be rich with dead cells that originate in the GI tract, including many components which are toxic and illicit an immune or inflammatory response, which are largely interconnected. There are pressure gradients between the lymphatic vessels and interstitial fluid that allows for the lymphatic vessels to be filled. This occurs via a process that involves a number of different kinetic mechanisms, but the point to understand is that once the fluid passes the epithelium of the lymphatic vessel, it stays inside the lymphatic system; the fluid does not pass back into the interstitial space.

Once inside the lymphatic system the flow is also unidirectional and there are bicuspid valves, which keep the fluid from flowing backward. The fluid gets moved by a number of forces including the contraction of skeletal muscle, and the contraction of the smooth muscle within the valves. Propulsion is also chemically mediated, and this is the important part, the force of these smooth muscle contractions inside the vessels is influenced by the adrenergic system but also by factors humoral immunity. What has been discovered, and something that I have never heard discussed on a message board, is that general inflammatory processes stimulate lymphatic drainage by increasing contractility, but this is not true for endotoxins,which have the opposite effect. Alternatively said, many of the toxins that are filtered through the lymphatic system have the effect of stimulating greater motility; however, the toxic components of gram-negative bacterial cell walls slow down the flow of lymphatic fluid. Endotoxins inhibit the flow of lymph fluid by descreasing the contractility.

The presence of endotoxins from the bowel is what I believe principally accounts for the lymphatic "stagnation" or lymph pain that many report. Many will never experience this because they do not "challenge" the bowels with the requisite organisms to displace gram negative pathogenic bacteria, their immunocompromised status inhibits any significant bacterial displacement, their intestinal permeability is minimal and the endotoxins remain in the bowel, or perhaps they just don't have an abundance of gram negative pathogens. One of the things I have been trying to do over the last year is find a better way to neutralize the endotoxins in the bowel, and I think this is where RS and SCFA's enter the picture.

One other thing to understand is that the lymphathic system is acting as a reservoir to process the endotoxins at a rate that the liver can handle. The lymphatic fluid is ultimately drained into systemic blood circulation where they will quickly be available to the liver. Keeping the lymphatic fluid, with all of the accumulated toxins, out of circulation is seemingly protective. In effect, the rate of propulsion limits the more robust effect that is going to occur if when the lymph fluid enters circulation and the liver cannot effectively process the endotoxins. This is where glutathione depletion occurs to a very large extent, I think. When GSH in the liver is so thoroughly oxidized there is little to export to the other tissues and muscles. (Of course there are issues of synthesis as well, but I see this as largely a protective response, and I am getting way off point).

You should know that the lymphatic network is not a static system, while the fluid is in place there are enzymatic reactions throughout the vessels and nodes that participate in neutralization of the toxins. Chemical process, principally hydrolase enzymes, participate in this chemical neutralization of LPS. These enzymes are one of the "antidotes" to LPS, however, hydrolysis is an energy dependent process. These enzymatic reactions are fueled by ATP, something those with chronic inflammatory illnesses don't have in abundance. Studies of LPS propulsion have also demonstrated that the endotoxins can remain in the vessels for weeks. I would venture a guess that many have experienced the effects of these endotoxins, but they don't realize it. They induce NOS and OS that produce fatigue, stimulate TNF-a and pro-inflammatory cytokines, cause irritability of muscle tissue, etc.

So, it sounds like you have some lymphatic pain or soreness in your groin/hip area. I experience soreness, which I assume relates to the inflammatory nature of the endotoxins, and pain caused by swelling when the propulsion of the lymphatic fluid slows down. Over time I have learned that if I experience painful lymph swelling in a node (I can't see swelling, I can only feel this) I have to put on the brakes and stop stimulating the immune response. That is, I am slowing down the displacement of pathogens. The pattern that I established is that when I use Bifidobacteria at sufficient concentrations (& the right strains), which colonizes the large intestine, I experience more prominent lymphatic symptoms in my lower extremities. The femoral and inguinal vessels which pass through the anterior thigh and groin are clearly effected, but I seem to experience more pain in my legs and feet. Conversely, when I take LAB, the lymphatic involvement more prominently involves the nodes along the outside of the rib cage up to the axilla. When you visualize the lymphatic network you can see how the distribution of vessels would be effected depending upon the segment of the GI tract that is involved. Stagnation resultant from small bowel lymphatic engagement would more directly effect those vessels in the trunk versus the distally located large intestines, which influences the groin, thighs, legs, etc, because if the propulsion adjacent to the lower intestine slows down, so does everything below it.

Some of the more reliable indicators of lymphatic involvement mediated by endotoxins are pain in the lymph node behind the knee and the node in the grove between the distal tibia/fibula (this is ST36 in accupuncture and is perhaps one of the most important accupressure points in Chinese Medicine). Also, sore spots along the left and right sides of the spinal column, and most acutely, soreness adjacent to the spine, on the left side just under the shoulder blade.

This information is so excellent. Thank you for taking the time to type this out.
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
@Vegas Seconded - thank you for typing all of that out. Actually I don't have any swelling or pain in any of my lymph areas except the sides of my neck (and it's not a thyroid issue for me). Many years ago I had issues in the lymph areas in groin and armpits, but was on a terrible diet at that time long ago, and gut was a mess way back then.

Fast forward a couple of decades: I have a somewhat better gut than way back then, but deal with several chronic gut problems to this day. The only body part other than my gut that I feel swelling in is the neck area mentioned above. Nothing in my back, knees, shoulders, none.

Your grasp of all of this is way over mine - I just think about "get rid of bad bugs in the gut, put good bugs in the gut, eat a diet that doesn't cause too many problems, and hope some of this helps heal leaky gut".

But, every time in the past 4 years that I have tried a probiotic, either from the store or home cultured, I get worsening of gut motility (slow gut motility), not fixed by any of the usual fixes. Have not recently tried a bifido-only culture, wish to try it, and wondered about the lymph symptoms you mentioned. I'm not sure if I'll get those symptoms when I try the bifido program. we'll see.

I'm reading the resistant starch thread too, and considering taking tiny steps using that.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
That is fine.

Actually I am not speaking of classic autoimmunity in the way that you are thinking, although the humoral immune system is centrally involved. I am referring to the fact that endotoxins from the gut stimulate the immune system and I believe neutralization of these toxins in the bowel is a very high priority. We can subdue the immune activation to mitigate the adverse symptomatic response the immune response creates, but this doesn't get us any better in the long run. As I see it, the problem is not getting rid of the pathogen, but rather dealing with the effects that the displacement of the pathogen creates. We need better targeted immune stimulation that also participates in neutralization of the associated inflammatory response that ensues. Central to this is the idea that we must neutralize the endotoxins in the bowel and correct intestinal permeability so that the lymphatic and circulatory system are not so thoroughly engaged. T


After reading through this a couple of times I was able to understand what you mean, and when I realized the idea of dealing with the effects that the displacement of the pathogen creates was faced in a protocol that I had spent some time looking into in the past, it became easier to understand.

It also brought to mind that on that protocol,(Marshall Protocol), quercitin was mentioned as a natural product that would accomplish that. The med that was used was benitar, (sp?) and it was used to relieve the associated inflammatory response brought on by low doses of antibiotics. Bromelain was mentioned but not considered acceptable by Marshall, but I do believe that it might be even better than quercitin.

I found a study that has information about bromelain and papain and their relationship to reducing the inflammatory response, but I don't understand it yet. I'll post the link and you can see what you think.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1809566/

That one doesn't look too promising, but this one http://www.jlr.org/content/52/1/1.full
about HDL does.


So we do need to stimulate an immune response to deal with the endotoxin, but we have to try to keep it at a bearable level. If we can find a way to step up the immune system and at the same time find something to relieve or neutralize the inflammatory response that it causes, we can get better faster.

I have tried the PS and glucomannan, and both of them made me very uncomfortable, maybe I would have to use less. Clay and activated charcoal do help without any negatives; do you think there is anything contradictory in using them at least for now. I do get relief from bromelain, and am going to start being consistent with that.

Thanks again, Vegas, you'll never know how much I appreciate your knowledge.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
With respect to the HDL neutralizing LPS, although HDL does neutralize LPS, I am wondering if this primarily occurs outside of the large intestines and causes cholesterol build up in the arteries. Cholesterol build up in the arteries is considered a bad thing, even though it is one of the body's protective measures.

This does reveal to me though that it's even more important to deal with the LPS while it's in the gut.

I saw a study about PCT, procalcitonin, neutralizing LPS too, and I'm wondering if this causes the clumping of blood.
I'll have to see if I can find more evidence of that.

LPS is a deadly commodity, eh? I can't believe I never heard of it until a few days ago.

I'm now leaning towards pau d'arco, it does have some effect on LPS.

Cat's claw, too.

I realize that cat's claw and pau d'arco are not life giving as probiotics are, but at the very least, they would be glutathione sparing and systemic inflammation inhibitors.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I would like to add that pau d'arco and cat's claw do not have a neutralizing effect; quite the contrary. I don't know why I even thought that they would. They can clear up infections, so they basically kill the pathogen. Neutralization would be necessary when taking them, too. The only helpful thing I've found so far is activated charcoal. I might get some quercetin and see if that helps.

I did get some quercetin today, quercetin with nettles, and it helped really quickly. My worst symptom when taking probiotics and/or pau d'arco tea has been an ache up the right side of my neck and the back of my skull. Facial neuralgia, that may be sinus issues, has been bothering me, too.

The probiotics and the pau d'arco tea have improved my energy levels, and the activated charcoal and quercetin with nettles have provided relief from I guess released toxins of some sort.
 
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end

Messages
263
I recommend B. Infantis and Bifidus for their full complement of enzymes able to convert and interconvert all forms of folate, but for the specific purpose of lowering ammonia, B. Bifidus is going to be the most effective. This process happens via a number of different mechanisms.

First, the Bifidus through production of bacteriocins and organic acids results in the displacement of pathogenic organisms that are net producers of ammonia (or other nitrogenous products that contribute to this). While I see individual variances in organisms that predominate in many different inflammatory diseases down to something as specific as ME/CFS, the broadest classification of organisms creating the dysbiosis is the predominance of PROTEOBACTERIA. These gram-positive, largely anaerobic species need to be displaced from the lower intestinal tract; the void needs to be filled with organisms that can reside there. This means you need competing species that will fill this largely anaerobic niche. Like proteobacteria, bifidus species, will occupy that niche. They are obligatively or facultatively, anaerobic, like most proteobacteria, yet they are gram positive and non-pathogenic.
(Other aerobic organisms and the deamination of proteins and other nitrogenous compounds also contribute to this, but I don't want to get too complicated).

The second, method whereby the Bifidum will decrease plasma ammonia is through it's ability to alter pH. Lower pH reduces the production of ammonia by intestinal organisms. What I think is more consequential though is that a lower, and more acidic pH will enhance hydrolysis. In the lower pH of the large intestine ammonia (NH3) can more readily bond with Hydrogen, creating ammonium (NH4). The importance of this reaction is that ammonium cannot pass through the bowel wall into the blood. Reducing pH in the colon thus allows for ammonia to be converted to a less toxic form, and one that does not diffuse into the blood.

The nitrogenous compounds that will create problems don't just include ammonia. Protein catabolism and the one's metabolism and disassimilation of amino acids can create a number of toxic byproducts. I think that some people who take enzymes do poorly because they are freeing compounds that cannot be readily metabolized. Perhaps the failure to fully breakdown proteins that is nearly universal in ME/CFS has a protective purpose. These toxic compounds include, cresols, phenols, indoles, hydrogen sufide, amines, etc. Purine alkaloids from plants are simply amines. Another problematic category is threonine, which is metabolized into aldehydes. (Check out foods high in threonine to see if you have trouble with any of these) Threonine is toxic to me, yet it is an important molecule in maintaining the integrity of the intestinal lining. For those who use GcMAF, it is a sugar attached to the threonine amino acid that makes the Gc protein “glycosylated.”

In vivo and vitro studies do show that these organism can lower plasma ammonia, and other toxic compounds like phenols. Sure, an "upregulated" enzyme involved in cysteine biosynthesis might make you a bit more symptomatic, but this is not the underlying cause of the disordered metabolism. Adults have 10x's higher plasma ammonia than children, and they have, by proportion, about 1/4 to 1/5 the number of bifidus organisms. I see many with ME/CFS who have 10 x's the concentration of plasma ammonia than the average adult. What I think many people don't realize though, and I believe I mentioned this, but many pathogenic organisms are involved in nitrogen fixation and denitrification, so while all must go, their diminishment can make matters worse unless the appropriate organisms are left in their place.

I read where Dr. Ruggiero said that his GcMAF "yogurt" formulation was dominated by bacterial organisms that predominate in infants. This is exactly what I am suggesting, re-populate with those human strains that healthy infants possess. I do, however, believe many strains, particularly homofermentative LAB are to be initially avoided, i think the full ability to synthesize and convert all forms of folate should be incorporated, and I also believe that one needs to concentrate on repopulating with COLONIZING strains.

Unfortunately, gram-positive bacteria are, by nature, extremely hostile. They have tough outer layers of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) that make them resilient to many antibiotics. (Conversely, many of the commensal organisms, like those most should receive at birth, are highly sensitive to these antibiotics..thanks Fleming.) Lipid A takes no prisoners, and it's antigenic friend O-antigen will help stimulate some more unwanted symptoms. Bifidobacteria can neutralize some of this, but once you start displacing organisms these components of the dead bacterial cell walls will elicit a powerful immune response and cause huge amounts of ROS and NOS, which will call upon your GSH stores and occupy the lympathic networks as they make their way to the liver. Go too quickly, and your symptoms will tell you. Modifying the human intestinal microbiome takes time, but it seems to be worth it. Like others who have made very pronounced recoveries from ME/CFS, I always considered the GI component a secondary complication, but I know feel confident that it was primary in the pathogenesis of my illness.

Holly crap - I just worked out the most effect strain in VSL#3 was the B. Infantis!

I have severe ammonia issues(to the point that my sweat smells strongly of ammonia)and did not know the B. Infantis helps lower ammonia!

Am yet to fully read through this thread...
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Holly crap - I just worked out the most effect strain in VSL#3 was the B. Infantis!

I have severe ammonia issues(to the point that my sweat smells strongly of ammonia)and did not know the B. Infantis helps lower ammonia!

Am yet to fully read through this thread...

By the way, I don't want to confuse you. I see an error above, Proteobacteria are not gram positive, they are gram negative.

I think B. Longum, which I seem to recall is included in VSL#3, is actually more effective at reducing ammonia concentrations in many studies, but there is significant inter-variability among the species and strains. One would have to compare specific strains of a particular species. There is a wonderfully complex dynamic, yet there do seem to be some species that are missing or significantly lacking in quite a number of inflammatory diseases. It would be great if we actually had some genus, species, and strain specific data from a large ME/CFS patient population.
 

pemone

Senior Member
Messages
448
When we do testing around the CBS SNP defect, I assume we do not just want urine sulfite / sulfate, but we also want to test those two in plasma? Which lab vendors offer those two in plasma? Labcorp apparently does not.

If we want to test ammonia, is this only tested in plasma, or should we test plasma and urine? Again, what vendors offer those tests?

Update on 4/9/2015: a researcher told me that urinary sulfite (unlike sulfate) reflects sulfite in serum.
 
Last edited:
Messages
39
Location
UK
Not sure if anyone is still following this thread.....? @Vegas the info you've provided is AMAZING.

I wanted to report some success on the Bifido yogurt making front. I make mine with a litre of pasteurized organic whole milk, heated to boiling then cooled to around 40 degrees c, add 7 grams of b. infantis and about 1g calcium ascorbate then incubate in a thermos flask for 24 hours. It seems to thicken really well (albeit with a few lumpy bits) and tastes good.

I did read somewhere that it was hard to culture bifidos at home however so maybe someone will tell me my yogurt contains all sorts of strains :)

The effect from the b. infantis was amazing in terms of brain fog - feels like my eyes have opened fully for the first time in 18 years. Not sure about ammonia, I still feel sick after onions/beans.

I was also doing well on potato starch, managed to titrate up to 3 tbsp a day, but then I added GOS (Bimmuno) and after a week or so everything went pear shaped.

From being almonst perfectly behaved my bowels now tend towards constipation and cramps, my lower stomach is tight and looks bloated and I can no longer tolerate the RS :-( Have stopped that now and also the GOS.

Has anyone else found this/know of a possible reason why?

I'm also struggling with zinc causing histamine problems at the mo so could be that - I don't want to scare anyone off GOS!!
 
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@Vegas

Does anyone know if mercury in the gut can be successfully chelated by ALA or would that solely require the work of effective probiotics?