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Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
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The connection Vol. 2: Adrenal fatigue and leaky gut

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Beyond, Oct 5, 2013.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100327225703AA17F2R

    Remember, without proper adrenals and thyroid the gut wont heal completely.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  2. chronix

    chronix

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    Is "leaky gut" an accepted medical term? Because "adrenal fatigue" is a term conjured up by quacks and charlatans.

    If your adrenal gland really is fatigued, it won't be able to produce cortisol at all (which is different from what is seen in CFS), and you'll end up in a serious condition which would need emergency treatment.

    The tips in this article don't sound bad, but again are built on questionable premises. What kind of parasites are we talking about here? Intestinal worms, like tapeworms, or microorganisms (protozoa)? In both cases it'd be best to just use relevant antiparasitic treatment.

    Getting rid of food intolerances is a good idea though, because it's such a universal problem in CFS. But to suggest people have parasites and "adrenal fatigue" is misleading.
     
  3. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Increased intestinal permeability and loss of gut integrity are a well known phenomena in the scientific-medical field, but the practising allopaths (not the ones doing the studies and case reports) are largely ignorant about it and what is worse they are hostile towards this very widespread condition (and anything that questions their fixed views on healh and science).

    Adrenal fatigue does not have the same back up with scientific studies and case reports, however, there are studies proving that testing cortisol in saliva is more useful than in serum. If you have low salivary cortisol, low serum dhea and pregnenolone, progesterone that is adrenal fatigue. Your point is not appropiate as something fatigued still works to some extent. Am I fatigued? Yes but am I dead? No. That is the same that happens with the adrenal glands when they are "fatigued". Some adrenal hormones are still produced but they become increasingly defficient as time passes without treatment.
     
    justy and MeSci like this.
  4. chronix

    chronix

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    I don't know much about leaky gut syndrome, but it sounds like the effects ascribed to it is still a hypothesis.

    Indeed there is no science behind "adrenal fatigue". The studies looking at HPAA dysfunction in CFS reveal adrenal insufficiency due to signalling error. The brain, for some reason, is underregulating the release of cortisol, which leads to hypocortisolism. The glands respond to stimulation though, meaning there's nothing wrong with the glands themselves.

    "Adrenal fatigue", on the other hand, suggests there's some debility of the glands possibly due to overstimulation, which is not the case. A challenge to the adrenal glands in a case of genuine debility would result in adrenal failure, a potentially life threatening situation. However, the exact opposite is seen in ACTH stress tests in CFS. In fact, there's a slight overresponse.

    Therefore, if anything, we're suffering from our glands being chronically understimulated due to underregulation of stimulating hormones.

    I've done numerous adrenal tests - saliva cortisol, blood cortisol, ACTH and stress test, etc. It all confirmed what I've said here. However, I'm sure some quacks would still have diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue if I was to consult with one.

    The advice in the OP isn't bad or dangerous per se, it's just the premises they are based on which are questionable. There's of course far more dangerous advice for adrenal fatigue and similar mystical maladies out there.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  5. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Interesting points raised chronix. For me adrenal fatigue and insufficiency are one and the same thing. I do not agree when you say that adrenal fatigue is not real, but I know you are right when you say some people just have a signaling problem rather than burn out adrenals. Personally though I know I have adrenal fatigue, my ACTH is actually high, the adrenals are who are not up to the demand. I have seen studies showing CLEARLY that rats purposely stressed; for example with intermitent electric shocks or interrupting sleep (yes I know very vegetarian :thumbdown: ) showed afterwards a permanent (chronic?) state of disturbed adrenal output. Is crystal clear to me that prolonged stress of any kind does have the potential of affecting the adrenal gland creating a patholocigal condition.

    Richvank theorized that the glutathione depletion caused the loss of signaling in adrenals and thyroid from the pituitary and hypothalamus in some of the CFS/ME patients.
     
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I'm not sure how advanced the evidence is on leaky gut, but this paper presents a very convincing case IMO, especially when combined with evidence from other papers. It may be worth looking at the citing articles - the knowledge may have advanced since this one was written.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  7. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Intestinal hyperpermeability is a recognized medical disorder, but as with many of our health issues, many allopathic doctors are not aware of the research. Here's a review of the medical literature:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12953743
     
    Beyond likes this.
  8. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    hi. does anyone know people who have improved a lot with the antibiotics for borrelia/bartonella and the gut treatments kdm gives? someone who is a long term patient?
    really need help...
    thank you
     
    Beyond likes this.
  9. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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  10. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Here, why having low cortisol (what is known as adrenal fatigue, although the correct term is HPA dysregulation) affects the digestive system, as so does thyroid (but remember, adrenal fatigue will cause hypothyroidism over time):

    Stomach acid and the adrenals

    http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/67/2/288.full.pdf

    http://gut.bmj.com/content/2/2/163.abstract

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00806375

    http://ajplegacy.physiology.org/content/206/6/1309.abstract

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=313068

    Digestive enzymes, adrenals and thyroid:

    http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/86/3/497.short

    http://endo.endojournals.org/content/119/5/2106.short

    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/74847/j.1749-6632.1955.tb42482.x.pdf? sequence=1

    Bile secretion and adrenals

    http://ebm.sagepub.com/content/145/2/631.short

    http://www.eje.org/content/43/3/458.short

    It appears after much reading that HPA dysregulations leads to gut problems and gut problems to HPA dysregulation.

    I will be getting some Betaine, Pancreatic enzymes and Artichoke extract to cover all fronts. Undigested food is no good! A friendly practicioner gave me access to Klaire labs and I canot wait to try their probiotics and prebiotics. I donĀ“t have a lot of financial support though.

    Of course, taking all these is temporary as I heal leaky gut and adrenal fatigue eventually.
     
    5ummer likes this.

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