The Undetectable Infection

[alex3619]

As a side point, quite a few years ago I tried to interest a local pathology group to look at a hydrogen sulphide test. No interest.

I am not convinced hydrogen sulphide is the cause, or even a cause. I am convinced there is enough there to investigate further. What is very likely though is that hydrogen sulphide is an important contributing factor. For that alone it needs to be investigated.

I would like to reiterate that most pathogens implicated in triggering ME can infect both gut and B cells. This is probably important.

 

[ukxmrv]

It sounds like the test Professor KDM developed with HS didn't work out. There were ME patients who bought the test and for their families and got unexpected results.

I'm not even sure if he concentrates on this as a test and treatment for patients now.

 

[MeSci]

As a side point, quite a few years ago I tried to interest a local pathology group to look at a hydrogen sulphide test. No interest.

I am not convinced hydrogen sulphide is the cause, or even a cause. I am convinced there is enough there to investigate further. What is very likely though is that hydrogen sulphide is an important contributing factor. For that alone it needs to be investigated.

I would like to reiterate that most pathogens implicated in triggering ME can infect both gut and B cells. This is probably important.

Sorry if you have said this already, @alex3619 but which gut cells get infected by the same pathogens as B cells? Human gut cells or gut flora? A link to where you have already said this would be fine!

 

[globalpilot]

It sounds like the test Professor KDM developed with HS didn't work out. There were ME patients who bought the test and for their families and got unexpected results.

I'm not even sure if he concentrates on this as a test and treatment for patients now.

When I did a fair amount of googling recently to see how hydrogen sulfide was tested in the human body I found a lot of references to testing urine thiosulfate or serum thiosulfate. If it were as easy as testing H2S in urine , there would be no need for a thiosulfate test.
It upsets me somewhat as I relied on his urine hydrogen sulfide test to rule out an overgrowth of hydrogen sulfide producing microbes.

 

[alex3619]

Sorry if you have said this already, @alex3619 but which gut cells get infected by the same pathogens as B cells? Human gut cells or gut flora? A link to where you have already said this would be fine!

I don't recall details, but I meant human gut cells. These are gut infections, probably gut lining, including entero-viruses. There was a paper a couple of years ago discussed on PR that reviewed this.

 

[MeSci]

Is that the one you refer to in this post?

I'm a bit confused now - you said you had got funding for a PhD, then you said you thought you could fund it, then this message says you are going for an Hons in microbiology.

 

[Elph68]

I'm a bit confused now - you said you had got funding for a PhD, then you said you thought you could fund it, then this message says you are going for an Hons in microbiology.

Sorry MeSci for any confusion .... Two different degrees ... I am taking the microbiology option .... And I am only eligible for honours first.

 

[Elph68]

It is highly likely there are sub groups and variations but I believe in at least half of all cases the problem is purely bacterial ... So that is the area of my focus.

This is a small study on H2S being identified/suggested as the cause of encephalopathy

http://www.momsforcleanair.net/uploads/HS_Exposure_Study.pdf

 

[Elph68]

When I did a fair amount of googling recently to see how hydrogen sulfide was tested in the human body I found a lot of references to testing urine thiosulfate or serum thiosulfate. If it were as easy as testing H2S in urine , there would be no need for a thiosulfate test.
It upsets me somewhat as I relied on his urine hydrogen sulfide test to rule out an overgrowth of hydrogen sulfide producing microbes.

It seems that it is nearly impossible to detect with current tests ...

 

[Elph68]

Here is another (more recent) study .....

http://punapono.com/docs/Kilburn1.pdf

Cheers

 

[Elph68]

I have been doing a little self testing which I will now put here.

I have burning eyes, nasal passages, tongue, mouth and throat. I also have bouts of geographic tongue. I have always said this was bacterial, and now I can argue stronger.

I got some 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide and placed some drops in various parts of my mouth. The areas in my mouth that burn do not show any signs of a coating and are red ... But don't appear to be inflamed as such. When the drops hit the red part (tongue in particular) nothing happened, there didn't even seem to be any change in the pain severity. The other parts had the normal reaction and became frothy and burned.

This suggests that the burning parts of my tongue are inhabited by catalase negative bacteria. Catalase negative bacteria produce hydrogen peroxide and can also produce hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen sulphide at low levels causes mucosal inflammation and in more concentrated levels causes lesions such as mouth/tongue ulcers.

The next thing I have noticed is a lot of the time I can't smell my own flatulance, yet according to bystanders, they are pretty rough. And a couple of weeks ago when I was on a farm, I went past a silage pit (fermenting grass for dairy cows) and again I could not smell the odour coming from the pit, much to the amazement of the people I was with.

Low level hydrogen sulphide poisoning through the nasal passages (burning nasal passages) causes immunity to the smell of hydrogen sulphide. I know my gut is full of hydrogen sulphide producing bacteria, therefore my flatulance is mainly hydrogen sulphide, and silage (fermenting grass) produces hydrogen sulphide. I am unable to smell it, therefore I am being chronically poisoned by it.

Therefore I can deduce that my burning mouth, nose and eye irritation is caused by low level hydrogen sulphide exposure from hydrogen sulphide producing bacteria.

The undetectable infection .....

 

[Elph68]

I'm a bit confused now - you said you had got funding for a PhD, then you said you thought you could fund it, then this message says you are going for an Hons in microbiology.

Just further MeSci ... I am trying to figure out the best approach .... I have a lot of data and I am looking for the right mentor.

I am meeting with an infectious disease specialist, who is an immunologist, to discuss what tests we can do to start proving this theory......

 

[MeSci]

The next thing I have noticed is a lot of the time I can't smell my own flatulance, yet according to bystanders, they are pretty rough. And a couple of weeks ago when I was on a farm, I went past a silage pit (fermenting grass for dairy cows) and again I could not smell the odour coming from the pit, much to the amazement of the people I was with.

I don't think that many of us are insensitive to smell. I'm certainly not. Many of us are actually hypersensitive to inhaled chemicals (which is what smells are - or rather the interpretation of them by the brain).

So maybe you can't generalise from your own experience. Maybe your illness is different from that of most of us.

 

[MeSci]

I am only eligible for honours first.

Sorry but what does that mean?

 

[Elph68]

I don't think that many of us are insensitive to smell. I'm certainly not. Many of us are actually hypersensitive to inhaled chemicals (which is what smells are - or rather the interpretation of them by the brain).

So maybe you can't generalise from your own experience. Maybe your illness is different from that of most of us.

Hi MeSci, could also be that I am in the early stages and still developing, where most others here are long term and the damage done to the olfactory nerve is substantial resulting in the hypersensitivity ....

 

[Elph68]

Sorry but what does that mean?

I have to do an honours year (mini thesis). That is what I am trying to sort out.

I am sitting on the fence... A treatment program using phages/abx or fill in some research gaps with regards to lymphatic transposition and opportunistic H2S/H2O2 producing bacteria ...

 

[globalpilot]

Hi Global ... Hydrogen sulfide it seems is really hard to detect .... And it seems nobody really knows what normal levels are, but they do know minuscule amounts cause disease ....

The theory behind the test is in line with what i have found, hydrogen sulfide is produced by these bugs in the presence of sugars .... See if I can find some more info .....

And it seems it can turn into something else before it is passed ...

Cheers.

I just finished reading the paper in it's entirety. I do think it would be prudent to get the thiosulfate in urine tested. I"m going to ask my doctor to do this when I see him in 2 weeks. This is something that has been overlooked so far in the SIBO world. This paper (only 5 cases) shows that in non fatal cases only thiosulfate and not sulfide was found in the urine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9274948

 

[Elph68]

Hi Global, you may have just identified the basis of my research project ....

May need a series of tests, with or without the consumption of sugars .....

Cheers.

 

[Elph68]

Hi Global, you may have just identified the basis of my research project ....

May need a series of tests, with or without the consumption of sugars .....

Cheers.

Some of you may find this very interesting ...

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815139-workup

Hydrogen sulphide poisoning causes uncompensated metabolic acidosis and basal ganglia lesions .....

Hydrogen sulphide poisoning also causes severe muscle cramps (pain) ...

Measurement of sulfide and thiosulfate levels is more appropriate for the evaluation of low-level chronic exposures.

This is what we need to be tested for ... Well done Global

Now I will start making a noise ....

 

[Elph68]

Further to what I have already posted, maybe some can relate to what I post here.

For the last few months I have had burning/dry eyes, burning mouth and tongue, ringing in the ears, an aversion to bright light, severe muscle pain in my chest and right arm and some sort of sweet hot sickly smell in my nose .... I have read the term 'cat urine smell' used in this forum by others. I also have terrible insomnia.

From the research it seems that long term CFS results in brain damage, and as you may now know I believe that this is a result of hydrogen sulphide poisoning ... https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/chemicals/hydrogen_sulfide/ this May be of interest to you.

I definitely believe the gut is the main issue, and that low e-coil makes the condition worse as e-coil ferments simple sugars and produce catalase which helps to protect the gut from hydrogen peroxide damage and removes food for the hydrogen sulphide production. I now have low e-coli, and very high enterococcus, the strep has been taken out of my bowel .....

I am now going to propose that the respiratory tract, particularly the nose, is the access that causes the brain issues, so I have conducted a self experiment.

I mixed some xylitol and water and started putting it up my nose 4+ times per day. I also mixed a tsp of xylitol with a clove of garlic and a similar piece of ginger in water and gargled it every night before bed, I also removed all carbs from my diet and chewed xylitol gum.

I believe this protocol has suppressed the nasty bacteria and certainly reduced the systemic hydrogen sulphide production .... Almost immediately the burning stopped and the nasal smell went, after 2 days the muscle cramps had significantly reduced and I have been sleeping like a log ...

Not a particularly nice protocol, but it has further proved that for someone like me, in the early stages, it may be much easier to prove a cause. I believe that CFS is possible without gut problems ... Particularly for males ... A diagnosis of depression in males, may in fact be CFS .... Hydrogen sulphide poisoning from bacteria in the nasal passage and respiratory tract .....

I believe there is a xylitol nasal spray available off the shelf.