The Undetectable Infection

[Elph68]

Do you have any data on macrophages from the guru's??

Cheers.

Somewhere through this thread I also talked about protease expression. A lot of antiviral medication are protease inhibitors. Protease is what viruses use to turn down interferon production as you have mentioned. Streptococcus parasanguinis is one bacteria that produces a protease that can do exactly that. Thanks for reminding me of that, better include that in my working definition somehow ....

So if one type of bacteria has that ability, then there has to be more .....

Cheers.[/QUOTE]

Hi Heapsreal,

I just need to hammer home this interferon problem. Interferons are proteins, protease expressed by bacteria (and viruses) destroys proteins. Interferons are attracted to hydrogen peroxide which is also expressed by the same bacteria .... Lambs to the slaughter .....

Streptococcus parasanguinis (and some others) naturally expresses protease .... Enterococcus uses heavy metals to produce a protease called metalprotease.... Hydrogen sulphide stops the aggregation of leukocytes (pus) and you have the immune system totally de-activated ......

What are these researchers doing?????

 

[Elph68]

I do believe that the missing link is protease and hydrogen sulphide producing alpha haemolytic bacteria in the micro flora entering the lymphatic system, most likely from the gut ......

 

[heapsreal]

Somewhere through this thread I also talked about protease expression. A lot of antiviral medication are protease inhibitors. Protease is what viruses use to turn down interferon production as you have mentioned. Streptococcus parasanguinis is one bacteria that produces a protease that can do exactly that. Thanks for reminding me of that, better include that in my working definition somehow ....

So if one type of bacteria has that ability, then there has to be more .....

Cheers.

Hi Heapsreal,

I just need to hammer home this interferon problem. Interferons are proteins, protease expressed by bacteria (and viruses) destroys proteins. Interferons are attracted to hydrogen peroxide which is also expressed by the same bacteria .... Lambs to the slaughter .....

Streptococcus parasanguinis (and some others) naturally expresses protease .... Enterococcus uses heavy metals to produce a protease called metalprotease.... Hydrogen sulphide stops the aggregation of leukocytes (pus) and you have the immune system totally de-activated ......

What are these researchers doing?????[/QUOTE]


Ideally something like ampligen with something to directly treat the infections. Research into ampligen which is an interferon inducer as been almost completely squashed by govt health systems.

Other interferon inducers used are immunovir but I still think we need to treat the infections one might have as well. Nothing is 100% yet? ??

 

[knackers323]

Hi @Elph68 I did reply to your pm but looks like maybe you didn't receive it.?

Is there any way we can test that will give us some indication that this may be causing us problems?

Don't a lot if healthy people also have these bugs.

Finally how do you suggest we best treat it?

Thanks.

Also would live to know @Jonathan Edwards thinks about this

 

[Elph68]

Hi Heapsreal,

I just need to hammer home this interferon problem. Interferons are proteins, protease expressed by bacteria (and viruses) destroys proteins. Interferons are attracted to hydrogen peroxide which is also expressed by the same bacteria .... Lambs to the slaughter .....

Streptococcus parasanguinis (and some others) naturally expresses protease .... Enterococcus uses heavy metals to produce a protease called metalprotease.... Hydrogen sulphide stops the aggregation of leukocytes (pus) and you have the immune system totally de-activated ......

What are these researchers doing?????

Ideally something like ampligen with something to directly treat the infections. Research into ampligen which is an interferon inducer as been almost completely squashed by govt health systems.

Other interferon inducers used are immunovir but I still think we need to treat the infections one might have as well. Nothing is 100% yet? ??[/QUOTE]
Hi Heapsreal,

This thread is the undetectable infection, I have always argued that this idea of boosting the immune system won't stop this, it may help keep other infections away, but the combination of protease, hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide is an immune system nuclear bomb that the body can't beat. There are no antibodies created because the immune system components can't get close enough to identify that the bacteria are a threat.

As hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide are 2 of the bodies main signalling chemicals, once there is an imbalance created from these bacteria that have entered the lymphatic system, then there is a multi system dysfunction.

I believe that the detection of bacterial protease expression in the lymphatic system is the ultimate test to identify the causative bacteria of this condition, a test to identify protease producing bacteria in the microflora .... Will probably do .....

I also believe that these protease producing bacteria are biofilm formers, so they 'piggyback' other species that produce hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide into the battle zone, further tipping the imbalance ....

 

[Elph68]

Hi @Elph68 I did reply to your pm but looks like maybe you didn't receive it.?

Is there any way we can test that will give us some indication that this may be causing us problems?

Don't a lot if healthy people also have these bugs.

Finally how do you suggest we best treat it?

Thanks.

Also would live to know @Jonathan Edwards thinks about this

Hi knackers,

I believe protease expression is the key. The same bacteria may or may not express protease, depends on its genetic make up .....

I honestly believe that phage therapy offers the most promise, it is natural and doesn't destroy the good bacteria .... Complete annihilation with IV abx and a full microflora reinstatement would be next (gut, urogenital, mouth, respiratory and eyes..... Bacterial protease inhibitors and catalyse supplements (opportunity for drug companies ... Just gave away my IP) could be another option ..

I have an appt. tomorrow with an infectious disease specialist, she was going to try and get the medical board to approve linezolid to get this garbage out of my lymphatic system and prostate ....

There are many conditions that are known to be caused by a chemical imbalance ... Some of these I believe are going to be identified as bacterial origin .... Maybe even very mild forms of CFS ......

 

[Elph68]

Let's get this little definition finalised .....

...... CFS is an imbalance in the body's systems signalling chemicals hydrogen peroxide and hydrogen sulphide which results in lactic acidosis, organ failure, nervous system damage, inflammation and multi system dysfunction. This imbalance is caused by opportunistic (biofilm forming) bacterial pathogens in the hosts micro flora.

Opportunistic pathogens express protease which disables the body's immune system and then use a process known as lymphatic translocation to take up residence in the lymphatic system and take advantage of the body's fuel source glucose to produce hydrogen sulphide, which results in a chemical imbalance that kills the immune system at the source of their production leaving the body literally defenceless to further bacterial and viral attack. The host is likely to have a genetic catalase deficiency at the cellular level or at the very least a lack of catalase producing bacteria in the micro flora which results in systemic hydrogen peroxide damage and inflammation as well as causing imbalances in the body's iron levels. Hydrogen sulphide production also causes inflammation, overstimulates the CNS and its peripheries and damages the mitochondria which affects the body's ability to convert fuel to energy...... Darren Elphinstone +61 419 140088


This is the undetectable infection ......

 

[dannybex]

I haven't had the time/energy to read this entire thread, so don't know if Marian Lemle has been mentioned, but it was her hypothesis that ME/CFS was caused by hydrogen sulfide dysregulation. She posted here quite a bit, up until a couple of years ago.

The last I heard, her daughter had recovered…perhaps that's why she's not posting anymore. Anyway, here's her paper:

http://www.mecfswa.org.au/News_and_...n_of_hydrogen_sulfide_metabolism/Default.aspx

 

[dannybex]

Another article:

http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...hronic-fatigue-syndrome-the-originator-speaks

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Hi @Elph68 I did reply to your pm but looks like maybe you didn't receive it.?

Is there any way we can test that will give us some indication that this may be causing us problems?

Don't a lot if healthy people also have these bugs.

Finally how do you suggest we best treat it?

Thanks.

Also would love to know @Jonathan Edwards thinks about this

Not a lot I am afraid. There seems to be a lot of random joining up of medical words going on!

Protease is a general term for several hundred molecules all with different functions - a bit like 'gardening equipment' - it could be a rake or a spade or hedge clippers. A theory of gardening that says it is due to using equipment is not terribly helpful.

What are these researchers doing?????

What the researchers are doing is trying to put together a theory that actually makes some sense and fits the evidence - and it is not proving easy. People like Ian Lipkin and Mady Hornig are trying to do this properly and fortunately they don't take much notice when they are told they are idiots, but I worry that there are a hundred others who get put off.

 

[Elph68]

Not a lot I am afraid. There seems to be a lot of random joining up of medical words going on!

Protease is a general term for several hundred molecules all with different functions - a bit like 'gardening equipment' - it could be a rake or a spade or hedge clippers. A theory of gardening that says it is due to using equipment is not terribly helpful.



What the researchers are doing is trying to put together a theory that actually makes some sense and fits the evidence - and it is not proving easy. People like Ian Lipkin and Mady Hornig are trying to do this properly and fortunately they don't take much notice when they are told they are idiots, but I worry that there are a hundred others who get put off.

Hi Jonathan,

Interesting you mention Doctor Lipkin. I have had numerous communications with him.

Cheers.

 

[knackers323]

I haven't had the time/energy to read this entire thread, so don't know if Marian Lemle has been mentioned, but it was her hypothesis that ME/CFS was caused by hydrogen sulfide dysregulation. She posted here quite a bit, up until a couple of years ago.

The last I heard, her daughter had recovered…perhaps that's why she's not posting anymore. Anyway, here's her paper:

http://www.mecfswa.org.au/News_and_...n_of_hydrogen_sulfide_metabolism/Default.aspx

It would be good if we could contact her somehow.

Didn't KDM follow the hydrogen peroxide theory for a while? I remember he even developed a test for it.

 

[dannybex]

It would be good if we could contact her somehow.

Didn't KDM follow the hydrogen peroxide theory for a while? I remember he even developed a test for it.

Yes, at least according to the 2nd link -- (Cort Johnson's article). And also at least from that article it seemed like perhaps her daughter hadn't yet recovered. I thought for sure however that I had read the opposite back in late 2012…

 

[Woolie]

I should point out that it is very easy, just using simple logic, to prove that herpes family viruses such as HHV-6 and EBV cannot be the triggering viruses of ME/CFS. This logic is as follows:

You can exclude herpes family viruses from being the precipitating infectious cause of ME/CFS simply by the fact that (a) ME/CFS most frequently develops in adults, (b) nearly all adults will already have HHV-6 and EBV in their body, since HHV-6 is usually picked up before you are 3 years old, and EBV is picked up usually in the teenage years. Ergo, when you observe that you have caught some virus that then precipitated your ME/CFS, it is very unlikely to ever be HHV-6 and EBV, since the majority of adults already have these two viruses in their body already.

I am not sure why ME/CFS researchers have overlooked this basic fact, which generally rules out HHV-6 and EBV as being the triggering viruses of ME/CFS. Of course, HHV-6 and EBV already in your body may be reactivated by the immunosuppression of ME/CFS, and may then contribute to ME/CFS symptoms, sure, that is another story. So it is still a good idea to take anti-herpes drugs. But HHV-6 and EBV cannot be the triggering virus of ME/CFS that you catch as a adult, in the general case at least).

Enteroviruses such as coxsackievirus B and echovirus are a different story, because although one or two of these may be caught early in life, there are in fact 6 serotypes of coxsackievirus B (not to mention the various sub-strains of each serotype), and there are 32 echovirus serotypes, so you can certainly catch a nasty enterovirus later in life as an adult, even if you caught one as a child.

@Hip, I seem to recall somewhere reading that there is a double peak to the onset age in MECFS the first peak is 15-20, or something like that, and the second is after 30. I wonder if these groups represent different types of infectious triggers?

I agree though that the evidence excludes EBV as a universal trigger. What it doesn't exclude is the possibility that EBV has a role. I've been reading a lot about MS, and the evidence is pretty persuasive that EBV infection is a necessary precondition for the development of MS. Partiuclarly interesting is the much higher incidence of MS in those that had infectious mononucleosis (not just asymptomatic EBV) decades earlier.

The conventional account of all this is that infectious mononucleosis represents a particular type of extreme immune response to EBV infection (massive mobilisation and expansion of T cells), and it is this immune event that sets up the preconditions for MS. I think there's something missing from this account (it provides a trigger, but doesn't exlain what sustains and intensifies the immune abnormalities over time - surely the offending T cell pool would be constantly renewed and replaced?). But I think I've gotten off the track here.

Another snag to interpreting the age of onset evidence is that the later in life you encounter EBV, the more likely you are to suffer severe mono. So its possible that in the population of MECFS people, we have many individuals that had an unusually late initial encounter with EBV. @Gingergrrl is one example I can think of whose test results suggest a very, very late encounter (she was tested for EBV both before and after ME onset and was negative on all tests before, well into her 40s). Still not a universal trigger, I'm just saying it might be a more common trigger than age of onset might otherwise suggest?

 

[Woolie]

The very fact that in these unknown cases of ME/CFS, it is hard to find any evidence of infection, makes enterovirus a strong candidate for the cause of these unknown cases: because enterovirus is the only virus I am aware of that has this non-cytopathic "stealth virus" form that hides away from detection. It is often observed that ME/CFS is triggered by some respiratory virus, but then regular blood tests cannot find any evidence of an active infection with the virus. This fact really points the finger at enterovirus — a respiratory virus which in chronic infections cannot be easily detected by normal lab blood tests.

@Hip, me again. EBV also seem to fulfill these requirements (virtually undetectable to the immune system in its latent form).

 

[heapsreal]

@Hip, I seem to recall somewhere reading that there is a double peak to the onset age in MECFS the first peak is 15-20, or something like that, and the second is after 30. I wonder if these groups represent different types of infectious triggers?

I agree though that the evidence excludes EBV as a universal trigger. What it doesn't exclude is the possibility that EBV has a role. I've been reading a lot about MS, and the evidence is pretty persuasive that EBV infection is a necessary precondition for the development of MS. Partiuclarly interesting is the much higher incidence of MS in those that had infectious mononucleosis (not just asymptomatic EBV) decades earlier.

The conventional account of all this is that infectious mononucleosis represents a particular type of extreme immune response to EBV infection (massive mobilisation and expansion of T cells), and it is this immune event that sets up the preconditions for MS. I think there's something missing from this account (it provides a trigger, but doesn't exlain what sustains and intensifies the immune abnormalities over time - surely the offending T cell pool would be constantly renewed and replaced?). But I think I've gotten off the track here.

Another snag to interpreting the age of onset evidence is that the later in life you encounter EBV, the more likely you are to suffer severe mono. So its possible that in the population of MECFS people, we have many individuals that had an unusually late initial encounter with EBV. @Gingergrrl is one example I can think of whose test results suggest a very, very late encounter (she was tested for EBV both before and after ME onset and was negative on all tests before, well into her 40s). Still not a universal trigger, I'm just saying it might be a more common trigger than age of onset might otherwise suggest?

My thoughts on this are that its possible we had a faulty immune system to start with or the initial infection possibly damaged the immune system some way. So one could have ebv as a trigger or possibly a reactivation or another infection damaged the immune system and ebv reactivated again.

Low nk function is a common finding in cfs. I always think of the function of nk cells is to fight viruses, so if they arent working then its possible any viruses could reactivate.

I suppose the question is if herpes viruses are the root cause or is it a co-infection from immune dysfunction?? The answer is probably different for many.

 

[Woolie]

My thoughts on this are that its possible we had a faulty immune system to start with or the initial infection possibly damaged the immune system some way. So one could have ebv as a trigger or possibly a reactivation or another infection damaged the immune system and ebv reactivated again

Yea, that seems to fit with cases like yours and others I've heard about here.

Low nk function is a common finding in cfs. I always think of the function of nk cells is to fight viruses, so if they arent working then its possible any viruses could reactivate

I thought their fucntion was viruses as well. I know that a lot of smart people think that supporting NK cells will help with the MECFS, but I wondering if its all the other way round. We can't control whatever viral infection is happening, and we exhaust our NK cells trying to do so. Its effect, not cause.

But then again, I suppose NK support might help give us an edge...

 

[heapsreal]

Yea, that seems to fit with cases like yours and others I've heard about here.


I thought their fucntion was viruses as well. I know that a lot of smart people think that supporting NK cells will help with the MECFS, but I wondering if its all the other way round. We can't control whatever viral infection is happening, and we exhaust our NK cells trying to do so. Its effect, not cause.

But then again, I suppose NK support might help give us an edge...

I think improving nk function if low has to help to some degree?? Is it a cure??? Its possible the infections have gone too deep or maybe some other part of the immune system isnt working or maybe inflammation could be protecting these infections??????

Treating the infections you find and supporting the immune system should help??

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gingergrrl is one example I can think of whose test results suggest a very, very late encounter (she was tested for EBV both before and after ME onset and was negative on all tests before, well into her 40s).

@Woolie Actually I was 41 when I got mono from EBV so not sure if I was "Well into my 40's..." (just giving you a hard time !)

 

[Woolie]

I think improving nk function if low has to help to some degree?? Is it a cure??? Its possible the infections have gone too deep or maybe some other part of the immune system isnt working or maybe inflammation could be protecting these infections??????

Treating the infections you find and supporting the immune system should help??

Yea, I agree, its gotta be worth a try!