The Undetectable Infection

[Gingergrrl]

I think improving nk function if low has to help to some degree?? Is it a cure??? Its possible the infections have gone too deep or maybe some other part of the immune system isnt working or maybe inflammation could be protecting these infections??????

@heapsreal I am hoping that increasing NK function improves the bodies ability to fight the infection. My NK function back in July was only five and I hoping when I re-test it next week it will have improved. My doctor said this is the slowest of everything to improve so it is possible to start feeling better and still have a very low number on NK functioning. I have been taking Epicor, Maitake and then AHCC mushrooms, Monolaurin, and other things that will hopefully have boosted the number but again, who knows?!!

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal I am hoping that increasing NK function improves the bodies ability to fight the infection. My NK function back in July was only five and I hoping when I re-test it next week it will have improved. My doctor said this is the slowest of everything to improve so it is possible to start feeling better and still have a very low number on NK functioning. I have been taking Epicor, Maitake and then AHCC mushrooms, Monolaurin, and other things that will hopefully have boosted the number but again, who knows?!!

I have felt good when on antivirals but had low nk function, for me my nk function didnt improve from being on antivirals. I have improved function with cycloferon and nk numbers with immunovir. I dont have access to nk function anymore only numbers. I do seem to last abit longer off avs when using immune mods. I will see how this works out with staying on immunovir long term this time.

 

[Hip]

@Hip, me again. EBV also seem to fulfill these requirements (virtually undetectable to the immune system in its latent form).

I was using to "stealth" to mean undetectable to regular lab testing. Latent, low level EBV infection is normally always detectable by regular lab testing, whereas latent, low level enterovirus is not.

If you have EBV in your body, even in its latent, low-level state this is nearly always very straightforward to detect by performing antibody testing at any lab, and the antibody titer will indicate the degree to which EBV is active in your body.

Whereas for enterovirus (specifically coxsackievirus B and echovirus), when you have latent, low-level infection with these, they are not readily detectable by antibody testing. Dr Chia found that only one lab, ARUP Lab at the University of Utah, was able to detect the low-level enterovirus infections associated with ME/CFS. ARUP have a highly sensitive antibody test for enteroviruses. Even then, this ARUP test is not considered that sensitive, and the gold standard that Chia uses for detecting enterovirus infections in ME/CFS patients is by taking a tissue biopsy of the stomach, and examining that tissue for enterovirus infections.

You can see pictures of these enteroviruses in the stomach tissues in this post (and you can see how in some ME/CFS patients, oxymatrine reduced the viral levels in the stomach tissue, and at the same time improved symptoms).


However, the interesting thing about EBV is that there is evidence indicating that some subtypes of ME/CFS may be due to partial reactivation of Epstein-Barr virus.1 2

 

[Hip]

@Hip, I seem to recall somewhere reading that there is a double peak to the onset age in MECFS the first peak is 15-20, or something like that, and the second is after 30. I wonder if these groups represent different types of infectious triggers? not a universal trigger, I'm just saying it might be a more common trigger than age of onset might otherwise suggest?

Yes, I read that new 2014 study too, and it does tend to contradict my earlier theory that EBV cannot be a triggering virus for ME/CFS.

The study you are referring to is this one:

Two age peaks in the incidence of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis: a population-based registry study from Norway 2008–2012

In terms of age of onset of ME/CFS, this study found there were two peaks in the figures: a first peak in the age group 10 to 19 years, and a second peak in the age group 30 to 39 years.

So the first peak of people coming down with ME/CFS in the age range of 10 to 19 years might well involve Epstein-Barr virus as a trigger, because EBV is picked up in the teenage years.

So I think your idea that these two peaks in the age of onset represent different types of infectious triggers seems like a good one.


However, I think my theory would still stand in its argument that HHV-6 cannot be a trigger virus for ME/CFS, because HHV-6 is normally caught before you are 3 years old.

 

[cigana]

I know that many researchers say that since most people who catch herpes family viruses and enteroviruses and remain healthy, these viruses cannot be the cause of ME/CFS. But that argument is complete nonsense.

If you look at poliovirus, for example: when poliovirus was still in circulation, most people catching this virus would show no symptoms at all, and remain totally health and unaffected by it. However, a tiny percentage of people would develop poliomyelitis after catching poliovirus — sometimes with fatal consequences.

Thus the idea that because a virus causes no symptoms in most people, it therefore cannot cause some disease in a minority of individuals is a totally incorrect idea, as the poliovirus case demonstrates. I cannot understand how any researcher can even suggest such an idea.

What do you make of Lipkin's findings of retroviruses in PWC's? I ask because I recall he discounted this finding as a cause because they also found them in controls...which always struck me as illogical.

 

[Hip]

What do you make of Lipkin's findings of retroviruses in PWC's? I ask because I recall he discounted this finding as a cause because they also found them in controls...which always struck me as illogical.

According to this article, Lipkin said of the retroviruses found in 85% of the samples:

“It is very difficult at this point to know whether or not this is clinically significant. And given the previous experience with retroviruses in Chronic Fatigue, I am going to be very clear in telling you – although I am reporting this at present – in Professor Montoya’s samples neither he nor we have concluded that there is a relationship to disease …if I were to place bets and speculate, I would say that this is not going to pan out.”

 

[mellster]

What the researchers are doing is trying to put together a theory that actually makes some sense and fits the evidence - and it is not proving easy. People like Ian Lipkin and Mady Hornig are trying to do this properly and fortunately they don't take much notice when they are told they are idiots, but I worry that there are a hundred others who get put off.

I disagree on this. The vast majority of patients with all these overlapping conditions have either recurrent, prolonged or chronically swollen lymph nodes and/or other tissue abnormalities. Patients are literally begging for tissue exams, and all they are getting are recurrent serum studies, which have been proven mostly useless so far (few with identified infections have been helped to be fair), even when done "properly". If a patient is their own advocate and has the monetary means to pay for off-label testing, then they should be welcomed and supported instead of being harassed, threatened with lawsuits and denied the testing they desire.

 

[acer2000]

“It is very difficult at this point to know whether or not this is clinically significant. And given the previous experience with retroviruses in Chronic Fatigue, I am going to be very clear in telling you – although I am reporting this at present – in Professor Montoya’s samples neither he nor we have concluded that there is a relationship to disease …if I were to place bets and speculate, I would say that this is not going to pan out.”

I hate to be so cynical, but I read this as "we want to be damned sure we are 100% bullet proof on any claims about retroviruses if we are going to say anything about it because look what happened last time". Which very well might be the best stance to take, but I'm not sure we can read much of anything from it.

 

[Elph68]

I went back to my infectious disease specialist in early December and put it all on the table. Although still somewhat skeptical, she said that I presented a strong argument and has put me on a high dose of Clarithramycin and Doxycyclene. One month on, things have improved dramatically, particularly my lymph nodes .... I can barely feel them in my neck now ..... She is going to attempt to get approval to prescribe linezolid, BUT as it is restricted here in Aussie, she has to convince a medical board in order to prescribe it ...

There are some things I would like to put on the table with regards to what I have discussed in this thread and what I have seen around the different forums. Antibiotics, being the first.

Bacteria can become antibiotic resistant in 3 ways. Plasmid sharing (genetic material from other bacteria), are already resistant due to their genetics or they acquire it.

Normally bacteria don't build a resistance while the abx is being taken, provided it is administered in the right dose and the levels in the body remain high enough to do its job. There are some exceptions, Ciprofloxican and the fluroquinolines is one of those, particularly when it comes to steptococcus/enterococcus. These bacteria can develop resistance to Cipro while it is being taken. Cipro is therefore not good for treating strep.

When bacteria acquire resistance it is usually when the abx is finishing. so not taking them long enough, or not taking them regularly allows the bacteria to work out what is making them die and can therefore build a resistance to it. So, those of you who do stop/start regimes are actually building resistance to the treatment and they then become ineffective.

Here is a very important point, many bacteria (particularly strep) turn off the resistance mechanisms (when acquired) after 6 months. This is particularly important for macrolides (azithromycin, clarithromycin, erythromycin etc.). It means that after 6 months you can go after the infection again. Inside of 6 months however ... a waste of time!

The last part of this undetectable infection is acidosis. Chronic acidosis results in systemic calcification. It comes back to what happens on everybody's teeth. Acid from bacteria that form biofilms on our teeth results in gum inflammation, tartar and tooth decay .... The basic principle of the undetectable infection ....... These bacteria do the same thing when they enter the lymphatic system .....

Systemic calcification means that calcium is deposited in the soft tissue, joints and organs rather than being stored in the bones. This causes symptoms of early ageing, osteoperosis, asthma, arthritis, heart disease, kidney disease, thyroid problems, fatigue etc. If your joints crack or you get locked jaw etc .... these are some of the signs.

Magnesium and sodium thiosulfate are the keys here. Magnesium acts as a carrier that makes calcium water soluble, and therefore removes it from where it is not supposed to be, and allowing it to be transported back into the bones. Sodium thiosulfate acts in a similar way.

Sodium bicarbonate helps to reduce acidosis and high dose magnesium can help remove the calcification.

Oral magnesium supplements aren't good as the body will absorb calcium first before magnesium .... suppositories, injections and baths are the best ways to increase magnesium levels.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Elph68]

Does anybody know about this??

Deoxycholic acid .... supposedly 'activates' the immune system, turns on the macrophages so they can do their job ....

Low levels of this in the body means the immune system dysfunctions

This acid is particularly important for combatting the herpes virus ....

This is created through bacterial metabolism of Bile acids ........

Any research in this area??

 

[MeSci]

Does anybody know about this??

Deoxycholic acid .... supposedly 'activates' the immune system, turns on the macrophages so they can do their job ....

Low levels of this in the body means the immune system dysfunctions

This acid is particularly important for combatting the herpes virus ....

This is created through bacterial metabolism of Bile acids ........

Any research in this area??

I don't know about deoxycholic acid, but I might question the wisdom of activating macrophages in ME, as it may be chronic activation of one type - microglia - that is driving the illness. See these threads:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glia-connection-in-me-cfs-fibromyalgia.30605/

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...roglia-could-be-driving-symptoms.30645/page-2

and you might also want to search for @Jonathan Edwards's postings about activation of microglia.

 

[Elph68]

I found some interesting reading on cykotine levels .... Again in line with the undetectable infection

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC174537/

Basically it says that lactic acid bacteria send inflammatory cykotines through the roof ....

Another chapter in the undetectable infection story.

 

[MeSci]

I found some interesting reading on cykotine levels .... Again in line with the undetectable infection

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC174537/

Basically it says that lactic acid bacteria send inflammatory cykotines through the roof ....

Another chapter in the undetectable infection story.

It might not be infection as such but gut dysbiosis or SIBO. Human in vivo studies are more convincing than in vitro studies, and I think there are several which show dysbiosis in ME, and many of us are benefiting from alkalising diets and supplements, suggesting that lactic acidosis is an issue.

This paper gives some info on this, and several papers, some cited in my blogpost, cite the triggering of cytokine release by leaky gut.

So it's all being studied and discussed already. Lipkin is studying both cytokines and the gut microbiome.

 

[Elph68]

Hi MeSci, Bioscreen at Melbourne University here in Australia has already done a lot of those studies and have already determined what you have stated .... The best that they have been able to achieve is a 70% recovery with constant relapses by fixing the gut. They already have mapped levels of different types of bacteria in the gut and have set the benchmark for ideal levels.

The undetectable infection is a systemic overgrowth of mixed species of biofilm bacteria which produce d-lactic acid, hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen peroxide .... In the presence of glucose.

They take over the urogenital tract, the respiratory tract and the digestive tract and via lymphatic translocation hide out in the lymphatic system feeding off the bodies supply of glucose.

Disbyosis is not just the gut and the toxins are absorbed via all the mucous membranes .... And women in general have a larger mucosal surface area because of the vagina and for approximately 2 weeks out of 4 the vagina pumps out glucose from the cervix (this i believe is the cause of vaginitis).... And ladies, if you fix the gut and not treat the vagina, they are just going to jump back in there again .... This can not be fixed without antibiotics ...

The condition is an undetectable infection as the medical profession and the lab reports don't see a large number of gram positive, alpha haemolytic bacteria as mixed species as an infection .... And it is more than just whether it is strep or enterococcus or lactobacillus etc. it is actually the particular strains of the bacteria .... Lactobacillus rhamonusus GG is good, lactobacillus acidophilus produces mainly d-lactic acid, not so good.

Anyway ..... I have managed to get an infectious disease specialist onside, I have been on 1g of clarithromycin and 200mg of doxycycline per day for the past 3 months, I also take 3tsp of bicarbonate soda per day, I overdose on magnesium, vitamin C and take CoQ10 and as you have read previously, a no carb diet.

I no longer have any fatigue, i am back in the gym, I sleep, I think clearly, I stopped thinking of suicide, my panic attacks and depressive episodes are gone .... Is it sustainable? .... Time will tell after I have completed the FMT program at CDD in Sydney. But unless they are out of the lymphatic system, I don't believe it is sustainable.

I personally have too much at stake to just sit back and let somebody else determine my future, but I understand the conservative nature of the medical profession and people like yourself ... It is just not me.

The undetectable infection .... Is what I believe ....

 

[MeSci]

Hi MeSci, Bioscreen at Melbourne University here in Australia has already done a lot of those studies and have already determined what you have stated .... The best that they have been able to achieve is a 70% recovery with constant relapses by fixing the gut. They already have mapped levels of different types of bacteria in the gut and have set the benchmark for ideal levels.

The undetectable infection is a systemic overgrowth of mixed species of biofilm bacteria which produce d-lactic acid, hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen peroxide .... In the presence of glucose.

They take over the urogenital tract, the respiratory tract and the digestive tract and via lymphatic translocation hide out in the lymphatic system feeding off the bodies supply of glucose.

Disbyosis is not just the gut and the toxins are absorbed via all the mucous membranes .... And women in general have a larger mucosal surface area because of the vagina and for approximately 2 weeks out of 4 the vagina pumps out glucose from the cervix (this i believe is the cause of vaginitis).... And ladies, if you fix the gut and not treat the vagina, they are just going to jump back in there again .... This can not be fixed without antibiotics ...

The condition is an undetectable infection as the medical profession and the lab reports don't see a large number of gram positive, alpha haemolytic bacteria as mixed species as an infection .... And it is more than just whether it is strep or enterococcus or lactobacillus etc. it is actually the particular strains of the bacteria .... Lactobacillus rhamonusus GG is good, lactobacillus acidophilus produces mainly d-lactic acid, not so good.

Anyway ..... I have managed to get an infectious disease specialist onside, I have been on 1g of clarithromycin and 200mg of doxycycline per day for the past 3 months, I also take 3tsp of bicarbonate soda per day, I overdose on magnesium, vitamin C and take CoQ10 and as you have read previously, a no carb diet.

I no longer have any fatigue, i am back in the gym, I sleep, I think clearly, I stopped thinking of suicide, my panic attacks and depressive episodes are gone .... Is it sustainable? .... Time will tell after I have completed the FMT program at CDD in Sydney. But unless they are out of the lymphatic system, I don't believe it is sustainable.

I personally have too much at stake to just sit back and let somebody else determine my future, but I understand the conservative nature of the medical profession and people like yourself ... It is just not me.

The undetectable infection .... Is what I believe ....

I am very pleased to hear that you are doing well, but would caution you not to go overboard with exertion. Many people have done this when they thought that they had recovered, and had serious relapses.

You appear to have misunderstood my message - not for the first time. I was actually supporting the findings you reported but pointing out that there was more recent in vivo evidence that was more convincing - not conflicting, and that Lipkin was working in these areas, the implication being: read his stuff if you want to find out more.

I also take bicarbonate, and also a natural antibiotic from time to time. Different regimes suit different people.

I was not suggesting for a moment that anyone 'sit back' and let others determine their future. I have never been one to do this, and repeatedly urge others to think and do for themselves too.

I think that is the second time you have accused me of being conservative, and for a second time I have to correct you. I am one of the most independent-thinking, sceptical (not least of the medical profession), radical, can-do people you are likely to meet. Anyone who knows me would find the suggestion that I was conservative hilarious.

 

[trev343]

@Elph68 What proof do you have that these bacteria enter our lymphatic system? Doesn't that mean that we have Sepsis?

I have a Strep overgrowth and actually found out I do better with low sulfur foods, because less H2S is produced.

I will be taking Neomycin and Rifaxmin before getting 1 Colonoscip infusion and 3 following enema infusions. Do you think that could be enough to knock this out?

Do you think I should take a biofilm buster when taking these ABX?

Thanks.

 

[Elph68]

I am very pleased to hear that you are doing well, but would caution you not to go overboard with exertion. Many people have done this when they thought that they had recovered, and had serious relapses.

You appear to have misunderstood my message - not for the first time. I was actually supporting the findings you reported but pointing out that there was more recent in vivo evidence that was more convincing - not conflicting, and that Lipkin was working in these areas, the implication being: read his stuff if you want to find out more.

I also take bicarbonate, and also a natural antibiotic from time to time. Different regimes suit different people.

I was not suggesting for a moment that anyone 'sit back' and let others determine their future. I have never been one to do this, and repeatedly urge others to think and do for themselves too.

I think that is the second time you have accused me of being conservative, and for a second time I have to correct you. I am one of the most independent-thinking, sceptical (not least of the medical profession), radical, can-do people you are likely to meet. Anyone who knows me would find the suggestion that I was conservative hilarious.

Hi MeSci, not trying to offend .... I appreciate the warning, happened last year, I slipped on the protocol and bammo... I still have 3 months of abx before I go back to the FMT program. My problem is the constant travel, 1 week Aus, 1 week NZ .... Hotels and airlines are not good for restrictive diets .....

You will notice that in my signature I have LTA .... Lipoteichic Acid .... Has always been there since I started this thread ..... That is what sets off the inflammation when it comes to lactic acid bacteria ......

Seems funny how what I have been saying for well over 18 months is finally coming to light. And it is all in this thread ....

Maybe I need to find a cancer forum and put forward my theory on hydrogen peroxide bacteria and cancer, but that is another story .....

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68 What proof do you have that these bacteria enter our lymphatic system? Doesn't that mean that we have Sepsis?

I have a Strep overgrowth and actually found out I do better with low sulfur foods, because less H2S is produced.

I will be taking Neomycin and Rifaxmin before getting 1 Colonoscip infusion and 3 following enema infusions. Do you think that could be enough to knock this out?

Do you think I should take a biofilm buster when taking these ABX?

Thanks.

I posted a paper early on that explained lymphatic translocation from the gut. This is an accepted medical term/condition. I believe Sepsis is from puss forming bacteria, these aren't ... These are inflammatory bacteria. I am not an abx specialist but the CDD used 4 weeks of oral vancomycin on me .... Totally obliterated strep and pretty much everything else gram positive in my gut but did not take out enterococcus, I felt great for quite a while, but I slipped on my diet and bammo. Hopefully we will resolve that once I get back to finish the FMT program.

Strep produce H2S in the presence of glucose so low carbs also reduces H2S production.

I not sure on those abx, but best of luck ...

 

[Elph68]

I imagine that kefir is something that most on here know about .... I have been using it for a while and I have been researching the components of it .... The difference with kefir and other probiotics is that the bacteria are 'colonising' not transient like yoghurt or supplements ..... So here is my thought .....

My research shows that if our gut was colonised with these species found in kefir, and not what we currently have, I doubt we would have a problem ..... Sooooo ..... Who has tried a colonic wash with kefir? I reckon it would be better than FMT ..... Certainly would help all those with a strep problem I reckon .....

Just a thought .... When my abx finish in 3 months I will be trying it before completing the FMT program .....

 

[MeSci]

Just a thought .... When my abx finish in 3 months I will be trying it before completing the FMT program .....

What's FMT...?