Vitamin D supplementation causes worsening of symptoms?

[Gondwanaland]

I found an interesting discussion about vit D here:
http://immortalhair.forumandco.com/t3665-throw-away-your-vitamin-d3

izzy

 

[NilaJones]

@Sporty, I think you should discontinue all vit D supplementation, and investigate why your levels are so high.

According to wikipedia, it sounds like you are close to the toxic level (or there already). That's probably why more makes you feel bad.

Or, have you been retested? Maybe it was a lab mistake?

Do you have any of these symptoms? (wikipedia quote)

Vitamin D overdose causes hypercalcemia, and the main symptoms of vitamin D overdose are those of hypercalcemia: anorexia, nausea, and vomiting can occur, frequently followed by polyuria, polydipsia, weakness, insomnia, nervousness, pruritus, and, ultimately, renal failure. Proteinuria, urinary casts, azotemia, and metastatic calcification (especially in the kidneys) may develop.[87] Other symptoms of vitamin D toxicity include... abnormal bone growth and formation, diarrhea, irritability, weight loss, and severe depression.[49][73] Vitamin D toxicity is treated by discontinuing vitamin D supplementation and restricting calcium intake. Kidney damage may be irreversible.

Exposure to sunlight for extended periods of time does not normally cause vitamin D toxicity.[88] Within about 20 minutes of ultraviolet exposure in light-skinned individuals (three to six times longer for pigmented skin), the concentrations of vitamin D precursors produced in the skin reach an equilibrium, and any further vitamin D produced is degraded.[91]

Published cases of toxicity involving hypercalcemia in which the vitamin D dose and the 25-hydroxy-vitamin D levels are known all involve an intake of ≥40,000 IU (1,000 μg) per day.[8

That last bit is why I am wondering about lab error.

 

[Sporty]

Hi,

Thanks for the link.

I have stopped taking my vid D supplements, yes. I've not been retested since 2012 so I have no idea what my levels are these days. I stopped the vit d supplements last week but I'm still feeling crap. Don't know why I'm worse. My symptoms are fatigue, more aches and low mood. Those are the ones that stand out to me. So not many of the symptoms in that list you posted. It's tiring just trying to work it all out, on top of feeling crap!

I should have thought I'd be feeling better if I stopped the vit D sups last week....

 

[NilaJones]

OIC. I didn't realise the test was from 2 years ago.

Is there any chance it could be unrelated to the vit D? Have you been out in public, or around anyone who has a kid or housemate with a cold? That always does it to me.

If it really is the vit D, it may take a while. It stays in your system for a long time -- many studies of supplementation involve just dosing once a week. IIRC, blood levels stay up for 3-6 months after you stop taking it .

I agree that your symptoms sound nothing like the overdose symptoms, though. That's why I wonder about other causes.

 

[wastwater]

If you want to keep track of vit D levels I use this testing service http://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/ D2 and D3 for £28

 

[Sporty]

OIC. I didn't realise the test was from 2 years ago.

Is there any chance it could be unrelated to the vit D? Have you been out in public, or around anyone who has a kid or housemate with a cold? That always does it to me.

If it really is the vit D, it may take a while. It stays in your system for a long time -- many studies of supplementation involve just dosing once a week. IIRC, blood levels stay up for 3-6 months after you stop taking it .

I agree that your symptoms sound nothing like the overdose symptoms, though. That's why I wonder about other causes.

Yeah with me still feeling rough I'm now guessing it's not the vit D but perhaps my methylation issues. I'm not sure why I'm surprised as it's been like this since I got ill: up and down!! Lol

 

[Sporty]

If you want to keep track of vit D levels I use this testing service http://www.vitamindtest.org.uk/ D2 and D3 for £28

Great. Thanks! Does the test civer this vit D 1,25 everyone keeps talking about?

 

[boo85]

I had to take 10 to 20 thousand icu to notice any significant changes, actually was surprised the doctor told me it was okay to take it like that on alternating days for a while. At first my levels showed 34? I believe, still very moderate range last time I checked. Might be bordering too high pretty soon though. I think its just your body finally fighting things off. To take enough vitamin D for toxicity it would need to be much, much higher then that. I can understand your worries about causing a flare of something else but perhaps talk to that with your doctor. You do need optimal levels of vitamin d for not only the immune system but hormone production and every other process of your body.

What was your vitamin D level before you started supplementing? Mine was at 23 in July this year...

 

[Sporty]

What was your vitamin D level before you started supplementing? Mine was at 23 in July this year...

Oh mine was 145.... Range 50 to 150. Very much top end range!

 

[Gondwanaland]

WAPF nutritionist Chris Masterjohn latest research on vitamin D metabolism:

Optimizing Health With Fat-Soluble Vitamins & Their Nutritional Synergists: Chris Masterjohn, PhD
(webinar)

13 Responses to An Ancestral Perspective on Vitamin D Status, Part 2: Why Low 25(OH)D Could Indicate a Deficiency of Calcium Instead of Vitamin D
(article)

 

[sregan]

Too much vitamin D? by Dr. Carolyn Dean explains it well.

izzy

"Taking high dose Vitamin D (anything above 2,000 IU) will also use up your magnesium because this mineral is required to change the supplemental/storage form of Vitamin D into active Vitamin D."

So I'm guessing she means Cholecalciferol -> Calcitrol?

From wiki:

Vitamin D3 has several forms:

• Cholecalciferol (sometimes called calciol) is an inactive, unhydroxylated form of vitamin D3).[citation needed]
• Calcifediol (also called calcidiol, hydroxycholecalciferol, 25-hydroxyvitamin D3, etc. and abbreviated 25(OH)D) is one of the forms measured in the blood to assess vitamin D status.[3]
• Calcitriol (also called 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3) is the active form of D3[4]

 

[halcyon]

The statement is slightly ambiguous, but the conversion is cholecalciferol -> calcidiol in the liver, then calcidiol -> calcitriol in the kidneys. Magnesium may be required in both reactions?

 

[Gondwanaland]

The statement is slightly ambiguous, but the conversion is cholecalciferol -> calcidiol in the liver, then calcidiol -> calcitriol in the kidneys. Magnesium may be required in both reactions?

I tend to believe that it is true for both organs. I guess every liver pathway needs magnesium. As for the kidneys, kidney stones are related to low magnesium.
Interesting details here:
http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

 

[Gondwanaland]

Relevant info ( @aaron_c )

http://selfhacked.com/2014/12/22/experiment-megadosing-vitamin-d3/
According to Dr Marshall, too much active D can compete with other important receptors and prevent the binding of thyroid hormones (T3), cortisol and testosterone to their receptors, which cause resistance to these hormones. (R)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s correct because the VDR and the Thyroid Receptor are very similar (R) and active D can certainly compete with it.

So supplemental vitamin D3 is at least two steps removed from actually doing anything good for you. First, it needs to actually increase active D and second there can’t be any resistance in

4) Vitamin D3 Can Compete With the Active Form
Vitamin D3 is structually similar to Calcitriol and therefore it can compete with it and block it. So it’s possibly harmful to take too much.

 

[aaron_c]

I am skeptical of the claim that cholecalciferol is structurally similar to calcitriol and therefore can compete with it for VDR binding. I think we could say it therefore might compete, but even then I would guess the chances would be low: I think the body has a vested interest in preventing cholecalciferol from interacting with the receptors that calcitriol does--otherwise what is the point of converting it in the first place?

Also, I looked for where Marshal claimed this and couldn't find it. I asked Joseph about that, so I'll let you know if he says anything.

Here[1] is a study on calcitriol binding to receptors in chick intestines. Among other things, it found that "...removal of hydroxyls at both the ICY and 25 positions (cholecalciferol) completely eliminates the ability to compete [with calcitriol]."

As for the bit about 25(OH)D and calcitriol antagonizing nuclear receptors: I see that he used a computer program to model the interaction of calcitriol with thyroid and other receptors.... Actually, I could see this happening, but I think it is a leap to say that the fix is to cut out vitamin D entirely. As I understand it, upregulation supposedly occurred in response to bacteria blocking the vitamin D receptor. It seems like decreasing vitamin D would be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Interestingly, Christ Masterjohn notes in the link above that calcium deficiency appears to increase calcitriol at the expense of 25(OH)D with a whole lot of loss in 25(OH)D for only a moderate gain in calcitriol. It seems like Marshall would be all over this.

I don't mean to come down too hard on this, mostly because I am not enough of an expert to really say definitively that the Marshall Protocol is bunk. And (if I can call this agreeing) I agree that too much vitamin D is not a good thing.

On a side note, Masterjohn notably changed his tune from some years earlier, and said that while he doesn't like serum 25(OH)D as a test for vitamin d sufficiency, if you were to use it he thinks healthy levels will likely be something under 30 ng/mL. Aside from calcium deficiency causing low 25(OH)D and high calcitriol levels, he doesn't like vitamin D blood tests because differences in genetics in, at the very least, the vitamin D receptor will mean that the same test result will indicate health for one person and disease in another. Interesting!

[1] Structural requirements for the interaction of 1 alpha, 25-(OH) 2- vitiamin D3 with its chick interestinal receptor system. D A Procsal, W H Okamura and A W Norman. November 10, 1975 The Journal of Biological Chemistry,250, 8382-8388.

 

[aaron_c]

Joseph (of Self-Hacked) just replied. Here was the conversation:

Aaron C:

Hi Joseph,

You mentioned that “Vitamin D3 Can Compete With the Active Form.” I am having a hard time finding a source for this. I gather it came from the Marshall Protocol folks, but I can’t seem to find where they said this. Furthermore, I can find at least one old study that clearly says that cholecalciferol does not compete with calcitriol, at least in the guts of chicks.

Thanks!
​

Joseph M. Cohen:

Theoretical concern…​

So I gather this was his take, and not backed by, for instance, computer modelling of cholecalciferol, calcitriol, and the vitamin D receptor.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@aaron_c thank you so much for that!

Looking at my original post now I see how it wrongly emphasizes the calcitriol part because I just pasted it without editing and it was the heading of the 4th section and that is why it was originally bolded... I included it in my citation because it could make some sense for someone else here.

My main concern here is while my husband (and the majority of people) feels wonderful by supplementing with D3, I seem to be the only person I know that feels hypothyroid and depressed when I take D3. So the part about thyroid is the one that really makes sense to me personally and I was wondering if you would have any insight on that...

According to Dr Marshall, too much active D can compete with other important receptors and prevent the binding ofthyroid hormones (T3), cortisol and testosterone to their receptors, which cause resistance to these hormones. (R)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s correct because the VDR and the Thyroid Receptor are very similar (R) and active D can certainly compete with it.

Of course when I found out about my super low levels I supplemented until I got it in the 40's, but became depressed and my anti-TG antibodies doubled. A while later I figured out it was due to the D3 supp, and everytime I tried to take it again hoping I would get a cognitive/mood bood I would feel hypo and depressed again. Obviously there is something very wrong going on, and I am trying to figure out exactly what it is. I am a no-converter - can't convert T4 into T3 - taking commercial levothyroxine causes me the same as taking D3...

 

[aaron_c]

When did the D3 start causing depression and hypothyroid feelings? As in: do you have any idea where your level was testing at that time? At any point was vitamin D helpful in any way, or did it feel terrible from the start?

Do you take calcium? I ask because, as Chris Masterjohn said, if you are deficient it will cause an increase in conversion from 25-hydroxy vitamin D (the kind that is tested for usually) to 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D (the active form). And remember that even without calcium deficiency, he is now of the opinion that generally speaking we shouldn't need to aim for 25-hydroxy vitamin D above 30 ng/mL. So it could be that you already have more than enough, at least if you pretend that nothing is blocking your Vitamin D Receptors (VDRs).

Do you know what your VDR SNPs are?

Could you remind me what kind of pain you experience from vitamin K?

As far as the Marshall Protocol goes, I definitely find the part about chronic infections blocking VDRs interesting, as well as the part about 25-hydroxy and 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin Ds antagonizing nuclear receptors. Assuming you aren't going to try the Marshall Protocol, I imagine that would leave trying to fight the theoretical chronic infection somehow. But it does appear to explain your reaction to vitamin D.

I would be curious to see both 25-hydroxy and 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D blood tests taken on a day you took some vitamin d and felt hypothyroid. If one or both were quite high then that would seem to agree with Dr. Marshall's take. If it didn't turn out to be all that high we would need to find a new explanation.

Since "hidden pathogen" theories are sort of theories of last resort--because they are basically impossible to disprove--I have to wonder if there isn't something we're missing. Still, my two cents think it is pretty encouraging.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Do you know what your VDR genetics are?

VDR Bsm rs1544410 CT
VDR Taq rs731236 AG

Could you remind me what kind of pain you experience from vitamin K?

I have 3 possible descriptions for it:
1) like gout in every single joint of my body
2) like it was chelating oxalates from all my bones, esp. old injury sites
3) like it was turning into K1 and clogging my lymph system

I think #2 is the closest to the truth, judging by the other accompanying symptoms

Aaron, this is a short answer, I will come back for a detailed reply (incl re calcium) ASAP (in a few days).

 

[Dr.Patient]

I feel much better with my vit D levels up over 100. I use an olive oil based one (no soy) and dissolve the capsules sublingually.

If you don't live near the equator, you body cannot make vitamin d from sun in winter. At my latitude, there are not enough hours in the day to make enough, even if you are naked outdoors during all daylight hours, year round.

Could you please tell me what brand of vitamin D you use, and where I can get them? I didn't know they made an olive oil based one.