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Wessely congratulates himself again

M

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I thought the tiff between Goldacre and the journo was interesting, especially the bit where the journo admitted that he was basically parroting what he'd read, and that it wasn't economically feasible to have experts commenting on health issues.

I was a bit surprised that Goldacre referred to 'Chronic fatigue extremists' - not very scientific language for someone who prides himself on the same. I would like to know what qualifies them as extremists - are they extremely ill, for instance, or are they people who were extremely angry about not actually being ill?
 
M

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Wow, I didn't realise that Ben Goodacre was a psychiatrist posing as a scientist...I wonder if psychiatry is well represented on his Bad Science forum?
 
V

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Ren said:
Some animals may use tactical deception, with behavior that is deployed in a way that other animals misinterpret what is happening to the advantage of the agent. Some of the evidence for this is anecdotal, but in the great apes in particular, experimental studies suggest that deception is actively practiced by some animals...
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I've definitely seen birds do this. We have a bunch of house sparrows which hang out in our garden, and a few Great Tits and Blue Tits. The house sparrows are an unruly mob and it makes it difficult for the Tits to get to the food without feeling too crowded.

So a Blue Tit called out an alarm call, which the sparrows recognized and they flew into a small tree and froze to avoid the presumed predator. The Blue Tit then flew over to the food and ate a bit. The sparrows came out of the tree after a while and started crowding the food again, and the Blue Tit did the same alarm call, and ate the food again while the sparrows hid. He did this 6 or 7 times in a row ... it was pretty hilarious to watch :D

So not only are different species of bird communicating with and understanding each other, some are even lying to each other!
 
M

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Wow, I didn't know Blue Tits did this, but I did see the African Drongo (I think) do this on one of Attenborough's programs...apparently it can mimic the calls for many different animals, so it just tries different ones till one works...

Oh, and I think I missed the bit where this became a conversation about birds, but I'm glad it has anyway, they are more interesting than anything Wessely has ever said.
 
Snowdrop

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
You know, the more nonsense I read from so called science experts and science journalists the more I think that what is needed is not just fact checking but immersive anthropological research where the writer engages fully with the ME community to gain understanding about what they are writing on. It's a few months old but I found this article by the already mentioned Jeremy Laurance:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ression-there-would-be-an-outcry-9924174.html

Reading it makes one realise that Wessely will never stop spinning ME as anything but somatoform. Implicit in the text--first discussing ME then mental health, even if it's all in your head it's still real and still serious and always treatable with CBT/GET.
I don't think there is any amount of diagnostic science biomarkers that will convince this group otherwise.

I've made the comment elsewhere (I think) someone (a psychologist or psychiatrist would be great) could write a long essay on the history of medical abuse of patients with illnesses that as yet have no clear biomarkers/undetermined etiology. Per Fink could also feature. It could start by examining exactly what motivates some medical authority figures to completely discount hundreds or even thousands of patients account of their condition as they experience it.

Thousands of patients are delusional/mistaken vs a few experts with absolutely no valid science to back them up. Now that would be something worth reading.
 
A.B.

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
Snowdrop said:
It could start by examining exactly what motivates some medical authority figures to completely discount hundreds or even thousands of patients account of their condition as they experience it.
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Feeling like you haven't accomplished anything in your life as psychiatrist? Just make up a new mental disorder (by asserting that it exists) and become the leading expert on it. Tell the government that it's hugely under diagnosed, that the poor patients need help, and that money can be saved and watch the research grants roll in. Since mental disorders are a subjective thing nobody can touch you as long as you can maintain an air of credibility, and what patients say is irrelevant since they're crazy. The treatment shall be an insurance company's dream - they will certainly reward you for all the money they will be able to save. Colleagues will support you whenever your credibility is in doubt since many of them will be running their own scams.
 
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MeSci

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
msf said:
Wow, I didn't know Blue Tits did this, but I did see the African Drongo (I think) do this on one of Attenborough's programs...apparently it can mimic the calls for many different animals, so it just tries different ones till one works...

Oh, and I think I missed the bit where this became a conversation about birds, but I'm glad it has anyway, they are more interesting than anything Wessely has ever said.
Click to expand...

BTW we have a Bird Bores thread now...
 
V

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Snowdrop said:
I don't think there is any amount of diagnostic science biomarkers that will convince this group otherwise.
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I doubt that Wessely actually believes his spin - that's why he jumped ship when it started becoming difficult to dodge the science which was contradicting his claims. He's moved on to GWS, which has had less research, and hence doesn't yet contradict him to such an extent.

He's not a true believer, he's just been bought.
 
A.B.

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
Valentijn said:
I doubt that Wessely actually believes his spin - that's why he jumped ship when it started becoming difficult to dodge the science which was contradicting his claims. He's moved on to GWS, which has had less research, and hence doesn't yet contradict him to such an extent.

He's not a true believer, he's just been bought.
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I think the bigger fish are scammers. The smaller fish are deluded or uninformed and honestly believe it despite the contradictions.

There's just no way an educated person can maintain the belief that ALL cases of CFS are somatization. There are too many research findings that contradict this narrative and a researcher would know about them.
 
Snowdrop

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
A.B. said:
There are too many research findings that contradict this narrative and a researcher would know about them.
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If I was more cognitively and physically able, I'd make it my mission to widely disseminate that research.
As it is, my idle fantasies wish and hope for some able bodied, energetic and intelligent spokesperson to step forward.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this. I was happy to read on another thread that there will be a website for healthcare professionals with ME to tell their story. Deliberate, disingenuous disinformation needs to be rebutted from any and all angles available.

I am just now trying to gain enough strength to sign-up for a variety of news websites where I can post comments. For myself, I cast a wide net feeling that responding to injustices for other disinfranchised, marginalised and abused groups adds synergy to our plight.
 
alex3619

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
A.B. said:
There's just no way an educated person can maintain the belief that ALL cases of CFS are somatization. There are too many research findings that contradict this narrative and a researcher would know about them.
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I am not sure that is right. The history of science is the history of scientists being convinced they are right despite hard evidence. These scientists get replaced over time, not just their hypotheses.

It has to be even worse for pseudoscientists.
 
alex3619

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Valentijn said:
He's not a true believer, he's just been bought.
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That might be right, but I think its more likely he is bound up in a community with a counter-factual and irrational belief system. In other words, much like a cult. Of course the two are not mutually exclusive. Its also likely that he keeps getting rewarded because his ideas suit other agendas. Thus he gets reinforced. In this scenario he is not bought, he is just trapped in his position.
 
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