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What to do when Klonopin/Doxepin stops working?

Messages
98
Gabapentin (Neurontin) is not a true GABA agonist, despite its name; it was named before its mode of action was understood. Gabapentin actually has many different modes of action. One of them is to bind to the benzodiazepine site of the GABA(A) receptor. For this reason, taking gabapentin can make it easier to taper off benzodiazepines. If you do this, you're left with a dependency on gabapentin, but this is much easier to deal with than a dependency on benzodiazepines.
Thanks for the helpful info, zzz. So I assume that since the clonazepam no longer works well for me, I've developed a tolerance at the 0.5 mg level, and I really don't want to increase the dose (doesn't seem to work anyway). So the question is, would trying to substitute gabapentin for clonazepam, since it binds to the same receptors, be a reasonable approach, or does one need to continue and taper the clonazepam while trying gabapentin? I did try gabapentin with clonazepam about 18 months ago, but it didn't seem to help me sleep. But, I only tried it for two nights so don't know if that was a long enough trial. I just have to find a way to get some sleep while trying to get off the benzo, which may be impeding my recovery from the concussion.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
When it no longer worked for me I went to using pituitary glandular. I was also using hypothalamus and adrenal glandulars. Pituitary really worked for me. 2 years later B12/folate totally resolved my life-long insomnia.
 
Messages
58
Thanks for the helpful info, zzz. So I assume that since the clonazepam no longer works well for me, I've developed a tolerance at the 0.5 mg level, and I really don't want to increase the dose (doesn't seem to work anyway). So the question is, would trying to substitute gabapentin for clonazepam, since it binds to the same receptors, be a reasonable approach, or does one need to continue and taper the clonazepam while trying gabapentin? I did try gabapentin with clonazepam about 18 months ago, but it didn't seem to help me sleep. But, I only tried it for two nights so don't know if that was a long enough trial. I just have to find a way to get some sleep while trying to get off the benzo, which may be impeding my recovery from the concussion.

The gabapentin worked great the first night with zero klonopin. I actually had dreams and a full night's sleep.

It hasn't worked that well since so now I've been using a little bit of Klonopin with a reduced dose of gabapentin. I need the bit of klonopin to put me to sleep and the gabapentin seems to keep me asleep for the entire night. I will undoubtedly develop a tolerance to this system and then I don't know what to do. Maybe I'll have to go back to klonopin alone and then back to gabapentin, then back to both. At least I have never had a problem getting off klonopin. I just taper off for a few nights and then stop. I used to take weeks to taper off but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

When it no longer worked for me I went to using pituitary glandular. I was also using hypothalamus and adrenal glandulars. Pituitary really worked for me. 2 years later B12/folate totally resolved my life-long insomnia.


I'd be afraid to use pituitary glandular or hypthalamus or adrenal. I just did get tested for B12 and folate and did not show any deficiency for either so I guess that's out too. :(
 
Messages
98
When it no longer worked for me I went to using pituitary glandular. I was also using hypothalamus and adrenal glandulars. Pituitary really worked for me. 2 years later B12/folate totally resolved my life-long insomnia.
Interesting. I have been taking adrenal glandular in the morning for years. Can you tell me what form/brand and strength of pituitary and hypothalamus glandulars you took and what time of day you took them? Thanks.
 
Messages
98
took hypothalamus and adrenal AM/PM, 1x pituitary PM. Nutricology brand hypothalamus.

I had a major clearing of adrenals in May, and from then on no longer need any glandulars.

@almo, Did you work with a doctor/healthcare practitioner on use of the glandulars or did you figure out what works on your own. I'd like to try this approach, but cautiously.

Thanks!
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@CBS64 I read the label from Teitelbaum's Fatigued to Fantastic product, saw the adrenal glandular there. I knew the product itself wasn't for me, so decided to look for adrenals at iherb. There I found all sorts of glandular products. I knew my hypothalamus was a problem, so I ordered some. It made a difference to my highly over-reactive nervous system within hours. Then added the adrenals. Finally, when I could no longer tolerate Klonopin, I got the pituitary. Each of them gave me excellent results.

In general I use self-testing to work out my what my body likes and dosages. I've been using it for years now, so have a high rate of confidence. I only wish I had such confidence in a medico!:rolleyes:
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,089
Location
australia (brisbane)
@CBS64 I read the label from Teitelbaum's Fatigued to Fantastic product, saw the adrenal glandular there. I knew the product itself wasn't for me, so decided to look for adrenals at iherb. There I found all sorts of glandular products. I knew my hypothalamus was a problem, so I ordered some. It made a difference to my highly over-reactive nervous system within hours. Then added the adrenals. Finally, when I could no longer tolerate Klonopin, I got the pituitary. Each of them gave me excellent results.

In general I use self-testing to work out my what my body likes and dosages. I've been using it for years now, so have a high rate of confidence. I only wish I had such confidence in a medico!:rolleyes:

interesting, have looked into it a few times to possibly help sleep but never tried it.
So no sleep meds since using hypothalamus extract?
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
Anyone able to send me a couple of Hypothalamus extract? I have extreme sensitivities but would like to try this product given ahmo's success with it, sleeping is becoming a nightmare (pun intended) I'll pay for the P & P gratefully.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
So no sleep meds since using hypothalamus extract?
It was the pituitary which really replaced the Klonopin. 5 months ago I had a very accelerated detox event, focussing on adrenals. When it was complete and I was out of adrenal distress, I no longer needed the pituitary, and also stopped a number of other things. But I believe the fundamental shift in my life-long insomnia is B12/folate. Even though I still used the pituitary for some time, everything about my sleep had changed: falling asleep, staying asleep, and, when waking and getting up to toilet, able to fall back to sleep quickly. All these things had been big problems. I now sleep like a baby.:sleep::whistle::)
 
Messages
98
It was the pituitary which really replaced the Klonopin. 5 months ago I had a very accelerated detox event, focussing on adrenals. When it was complete and I was out of adrenal distress, I no longer needed the pituitary, and also stopped a number of other things. But I believe the fundamental shift in my life-long insomnia is B12/folate. Even though I still used the pituitary for some time, everything about my sleep had changed: falling asleep, staying asleep, and, when waking and getting up to toilet, able to fall back to sleep quickly. All these things had been big problems. I now sleep like a baby.:sleep::whistle::)
@ahmo, I typically have trouble falling back to sleep when I wake in the middle of the night. I plan to try the glandulars (have yet to receive those I ordered) to see if they help me fall asleep (and to try to get off Klonopin). Did you find taking any of these glandulars in the middle of the night helped you go back to sleep if you woke up, or did you just take them during the day and that helped overall?

Thanks for your help.
 
Messages
98
@CBS64 I only took them at bedtime. I used a herbal mix to help if I awoke at night. Later I found that Neuroprotek helped if my mind was going non-stop in the middle of the night.
Thanks. One more question: what was the Klonopin dose you were on and how long did it take you to taper off it while taking the glandulars?
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
I used 1/2 tab. No tapering. I had to quite because it was creating histamine problems. I've found that anytime I've used a pharmaceutical for more than about 3 months, my body rejects it. Now I understand this to be overloading my liver.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@CBS64 If you see this in time, here's a talk that might be useful for you. It expires 9AM PST Friday.

The first links directly to the page w/ this talk. It might only work if you've registered to the Anxiety Summit, in which case I'm posting the subscribe link.

http://www.theanxietysummit.com/replay-gift/
http://www.theanxietysummit.com/

Dr. Jonathan Prousky, MSc, ND
, author of Anxiety: Orthomolecular Diagnosis and Treatment


Tapering off psychiatric drugs so they don’t ruin your life

  • The process of reducing or discontinuing psychotropic medications
  • Difficulties patients have in overcoming pharmacological dependence
  • Reactions when someone discontinues SSRIs and benzodiazapines
  • Tapering approach, duration and improving outcomes
  • The importance of diet and lifestyle
  • Melatonin and niacinamide during benzodiazepine withdrawal
  • Using Neurapas Balance, rhodiola and GABA during a taper protocol
  • A tapering schedule case report
 
Messages
54
I started taking clonazepam (0.5 mg) and Doxepin (~3 mg) along with 200 mg magnesium glycinate over 1 1/2 years ago. At first, the sleep meds worked very well. But in recent months, they have become less and less effective and don't seem to be doing much at all now.

I've tried increasing the clonazepam dose a bit, but it didn't help me sleep better and made my head feel poorly. I've also tried increasing the Doxepin dose, but it also didn't help and made me feel very groggy the next day.

Any suggestions as to what I could take along with the other sleep meds to help at least initiate sleep? I've tried Gabapentin, but I wasn't able to tolerate it. I'm not able to take Rozerem since I have an autoimmune condition. I took Ambien many years ago and it damaged my short-term memory, so I'd rather not try that again.

I've been trying to recover from a concussion for the last 2 years (on top of long-term CFS), so sleep is important for my brain to heal.

I would greatly appreciate any ideas or suggestions.
 
Messages
54
How are you doing now? I have personal experience tapering off of benzodiazepines, and I'd like to pass on what I've learned to you if you need it. Are you still on clonazepam and doxepin?
 
Messages
98
Thanks for your reply! Yes, I am still taking the clonazepam and doxepin and I still want to get off of them, as I feel they are messing up my ability to recover from the concussion. I would greatly like to hear your experience. I'm particularly interested in hearing what you took to help you taper, and what, if anything, you took to help you sleep while decreasing the benzo dose.

Thanks very much!
 
Messages
54
Okay, what are you taking now and how much? That will determine where and how to start. I'll get back to you in a couple of days - I'm having a very bad CFS flare up but it thrills me to know that I can be of help.

First of all, look at The Ashton Manual. It's free online. Here is the link:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

Realize that a taper is going to take a long time. But, you can get through it. Some folks like me have a rough time. For others it's easy. But whatever you do - DO NOT start tapering until you know how to proceed and are ready. Don't up your dosage and don't lower it. I went through living hell trying to cut down on my benzo too fast (I decided to taper by taking 3/4 of my dosage and within 10 days, I was sent to the emergency room twice and my CNS was almost completely destroyed...) THEN, I learned the right way to do it.
And that was to follow the Aston Manual.

I'll give you more specifics later. Do look that manual over. AND find a doctor who will switch you over to VALIUM. I can't begin to tell you how important that is.

I also have two books I can send you. They helped me through my taper.

I think I got CFS and Fibro because of trauma I caused to my body from my improper attempt at benzo withdrawal. These drugs are nasty business. So you take care. I'm available by phone too if you want to talk.
 
Messages
98
Thanks so much. I have seen the Ashton manual, but haven't started anything yet. I've been taking 0.5mg of clonazepam at night for about 2 years, and take about 2.8mg liquid doxepin with it. I am very sensitive to everything, so I know I have to approach this right.

Did you take anything to help you sleep while tapering? That is one of my biggest concerns, being able to sleep while getting off the drugs. If I can't sleep, I can't recover from the concussion. But the I feel I really need to get off the drugs and I haven't found anything else that helps me sleep effectively.

Best of luck with your crash - I know how that can be.