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Why your doctor may not be listening to you

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
here is no role for antimicrobial therapy. There is no role for antiviral therapy, including treatment for retroviruses. There is no role for intravenous immunoglobulin, corticosteroids, special diets, or vitamin treatments

there is no role for narrow-minded physicians..​

frankly i don't understand what's the point of CBT or exercise, even if we beleive the official PACE conclusions most don't recover from this? Maybe just say well some studies suggest that GET might help but for most it doesn't so we should accept that people will respond very poorly to it.

It should be EMPHASIZED that they don't have a real treatment available. Why discourage alternative therapies when there is nothing to lose?
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
This is appalling to me and literally makes me sick that this is the supposed "Up to date" info that American physicians are being given to read on CFS.

This was the basic stance that my former PCP and an infectious disease dr took when I saw them and now I see where they got their beliefs.

How can these guidelines tell a physician that antibiotics, anti virals, dietary changes, other meds and even vitamins are of no help and should be avoided? This is such a load of nonsense and BS that I don't even know where to begin.

If I were not currently taking a beta blocker for my tachycardia & POTS symptoms I would literally be bed bound and not have been able to do the six hour drive w/my husband to see a REAL CFS specislist.

The diet and supplements from my naturopath have virtually healed my stomach issues and enabled me to tolerate meds better. I went from 24/7 nausea and diarrhea 5-6x day to absolute no stomach problems due to my ND (who fully believes in CFS and committed to helping me get better.)

Nothing has yet fixed my extreme fatigue, shortness of breath, PEM and host of other symptoms but if anyone is going to fix it, it will be the CFS specialist, proper testing, anti-virals, etc.

If I had tried to do graded exercise a few months ago when MD's recommended it, it might have killed me. I fear for the people (unlike me) who might blindly listen to a doctor and end up permanently bed bound from their advice.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
My next visit to my doctor was rather eye-opening. I ended up understanding even more about what was happening at UpToDate, and I ended up with a much more cooperative doctor.

Near the beginning of the visit, I told him about the results of my investigations of his source, which are listed in the first post in this thread. I described everything I had found out about Dr. Stephen J. Gluckman and his lack of qualifications. My doctor listened in an interested way. Then, when I had finished, he said, "I did you one better. I called him up."

I was not expecting that.

At the end of my previous visit, my doctor had shown me his sources - the ones from UpToDate. When I started looking at them and saw how out of date (and incorrect) they were, with the title "UpToDate" on the top of each page, I couldn't help it, and I started laughing. I think my doctor was prepared for a disagreement or even an argument, but apparently he was surprised that I just laughed at his sources and tossed them aside.

It turns out that my doctor is a very conscientious guy who just doesn't know anything about CFS, and was relying on what doctors across the country rely on (UpToDate) for his information. But my unexpected reaction to his information obviously gave him second thoughts, and he appears to have done much the same investigation of Gluckman as I did. Seeing no obvious source of CFS expertise, he called the guy up.

Gluckman didn't claim any special expertise in CFS; in fact, he said that he didn't even see CFS patients. (Lucky for them.) When my doctor asked him how he ended up with the job of writing the article, Gluckman said that UpToDate had asked him to write it. (Why???) My doctor then asked him where was a good place to find doctors knowledgeable about CFS, and Gluckman told him, quite honestly, that most doctors want nothing to do with CFS.

So my doctor clearly realized that his source was worthless at this point. He said , though, that it was really difficult to know where to go for good information; the journal articles I had given him concerned him because of the relatively low size of most of the patient groups studied. So I just happened to have with me a printout of the main Web site pages for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: A Treatment Guide, 2nd Edition, and I gave them to him. He seemed quite interested, and I really think he's going to read it. I also mentioned Dr. John Chia's work with enteroviruses, which I think may be applicable to me, and he wrote down Dr. Chia's name and promised to call him up before my next visit.

So like @JoanDublin and her story with her doctor, I feel that I have gained newfound respect from my doctor, and I think he is going to be much more helpful from now on. The problem doesn't seem to be with the doctors per se in both cases; they've just been given bad information from sources they trust. This seems to suggest that if a doctor is dismissive of ME/CFS, if it's possible to find the cause of his attitude, it may be possible to change it. Although this is clearly not possible in many cases, it does seem to be possible in some.

This brings me back to UpToDate, which seems more than ever to be the center of the problem in my situation (and undoubtedly in thousands of others, though they may not know it).
I used UpToDate in the past, and I always felt it was, indeed, up to date... They claim to have a subject matter expert write each entry. Obviously not true.

Yes, I think this story puts the final nail in that coffin. But that statement is right there on their Web site:
UpToDate is an evidence-based clinical decision support resource that is authored and peer-reviewed exclusively by physicians who are recognized experts in their medical specialties.

The rest of that page, starting with "An international team of authors like no other", seems equally divorced from reality in this case.

And the publisher of UpToDate is Wolters Kluwer, whose motto is "When you have to be right".

So that appears to be the end of this story. Once again, UpToDate's email address for feedback on content is editorial@uptodate.com. Getting just this one source to correct its misinformation can easily affect thousands of doctors.
 
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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Y'know what, @zzz, when I read about your meeting with your doctor and the apparently-equal relationship you have with him, I thought "it sounds as though zzz is probably a man". And you are!

I think most women will understand the significance of this. I can imagine most doctors reacting with anger and aggression to a woman patient laughing at them. From my interactions with doctors - including female ones - I have been given the strong impression that I am expected, as a female, to be submissive and compliant, not to question what my God-like doctor says.

I've tried; believe me, I've tried. I've walked on eggshells, I've talked quietly and pretended to be calm (this is quite convincing, it seems) but they still will not listen.

So, you fellas - get out there and tell your doctors what's what. Sadly even in this modern age, the rest of us may be dependent on you doing that.
 

DanME

Senior Member
Messages
289
First, I am highly impressed with your persistence and courage. Showing clinicians good and high quality studies can work, if they are willing to learn (and have time).

As a former med student I know, that most doctors mean really well and want to help patients. But they rely mostly on the current medical consensus. New studies and revolutionary insights are for researchers, specialist and university departments.

So in Germany we have a similar problem. Most physicians seek advise from so called "Leitlinien" (official guidelines), often written by the top researchers and medical professors in the field. They are usually very well researched and balanced and most of them are excellent. But CFS is buried inside a Leitlinie, called " Treating general fatigue". It is written by a professor for psychosomatics and is of course really biased. He only mentions the Wessley school and the XMRV disaster.

If you go to a doctor, who has never heard about CFS, he will either dismiss your claims or look up the general fatigue guideline. It is very hard to break this wall of ignorance and false information.
 

JoanDublin

Senior Member
Messages
369
Location
Dublin, Ireland
@zzz I'm seriously impressed with your tenacity and research skills! Well done you! Actually I dont have a copy of that book you referenced but Im going to order it today. I take it, in your opinion, it is probably the most up to date information currently around?

Well done again!

By the way, I forgot to mention that my GP is going to ring the hospital consultant tomorrow just to 'flag' my son for him before his review appointment on Tuesday. She feels its a good way of making sure that certain patients are on the radar. She asked me what would be the one thing I would like him to 'get' more than anything and I said that the reality is, his bowel symptoms are probably the most manageable of all his symptoms. Its all the other stuff like the sleep problems and fatigue etc which are the most debilitating and keep him housebound and out of school. She told me to leave it with her....Hopefully a ball has started rolling....
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
@zzz I'm seriously impressed with your tenacity and research skills! Well done you! Actually I dont have a copy of that book you referenced but Im going to order it today. I take it, in your opinion, it is probably the most up to date information currently around?

Well done again!

By the way, I forgot to mention that my GP is going to ring the hospital consultant tomorrow just to 'flag' my son for him before his review appointment on Tuesday. She feels its a good way of making sure that certain patients are on the radar. She asked me what would be the one thing I would like him to 'get' more than anything and I said that the reality is, his bowel symptoms are probably the most manageable of all his symptoms. Its all the other stuff like the sleep problems and fatigue etc which are the most debilitating and keep him housebound and out of school. She told me to leave it with her....Hopefully a ball has started rolling....

I just want to say that I also recommend the Erica Verrillo e-book. If you don't have a suitable e-book reader, you can just download the free Kindle app and read it on your computer. There is a paper version of an earlier edition.

Also want to say that although the bowel symptoms may not be seriously debilitating, they may be at, or close to, the root of the illness, so fixing that might still be worthwhile. There is a whole forum on leaky gut in case you haven't seen it.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
"I did you one better. I called him up". ☺

Sounds like a great doctor. Very thorough. Tx .. x

Ps. I wonder why Gluckman said "most doctors want nothing to do with cfs".

That explains some of the attitudes I've gotten but is it true ? If so, why ?
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
i would say that our biggest block in having ME mainstream is the amount and persistance of british info regarding diagnosis and treatment. It's everywhere and this infomration is fed to each and every physicians that wants to have 'the real information'.

The Cochrane review of best medical practices all turn to CBT and GET. It's one of the most respected medical database in the world.

We are fighting a monster. :(
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
i would say that our biggest block in having ME mainstream is the amount and persistance of british info regarding diagnosis and treatment. It's everywhere and this infomration is fed to each and every physicians that wants to have 'the real information'.

The Cochrane review of best medical practices all turn to CBT and GET. It's one of the most respected medical database in the world.

We are fighting a monster. :(

Two monsters - ME and the attitudes towards it.
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
"I did you one better. I called him up". ☺

Sounds like a great doctor. Very thorough. Tx .. x

Ps. I wonder why Gluckman said "most doctors want nothing to do with cfs".

That explains some of the attitudes I've gotten but is it true ? If so, why ?

First, as we've seen, doctors have been fed wrong information.

Second, I remember the attitudes of physicians during my training regarding women with fibromyalgia as being psychiatric, or drug seeking patients. Those, if still persistent, are hard to shake off.

Third, CFS and fibro patients, are long-term patients with unending complaints (rightfully so), and not much treatment benefits-and these are hard to deal with for an average physician.

Fourth, the frustration cycle goes round and round.

Fifth, doctors are not as 'adventurous' as patients, and in the desperation that patients want to try any kind of treatments, doctors may see patients as being unsatisfiable.

This is where only an expert doctor in MECFSFIBRO will be helpful, and not a general doctor.
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
Until there is at least a one month rotation during medical school in all medical schools, and in residency training (primary care) for MECFSFIBRO, this attitude of physicians will not change.
 

Mij

Senior Member
Messages
2,353
Most GPs can only schedule to see a patient for 10-15 minutes. If you can't see an ME / CFS specialist I think your best bet is an Integrative and Functional Medicine doctor. I saw one for 13 years and although he wasn't experienced in anti-viral treatments etc I was at least able to book and hour appoitment with him and provide information for him to read. Surpisingly, he was more updated on the subject than I was! He was open minded enough to rx me tons of magnesium/taurine and B12 injections.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Until there is at least a one month rotation during medical school in all medical schools, and in residency training (primary care) for MECFSFIBRO, this attitude of physicians will not change.

Hi @Dr.Patient

I'm not up on med school. Would it really take a month to understand cfs ? We're just several patients rolled into one.

Fwiw. I'd add a 6th reason. Some doctors aren't equipped to recognize the level of cognitive problems pwcs experience. Since we appear coherent, they assume these symptoms are emotional.

Understanding pwcs limited attention spans would make things easier for both doctors and patients. Imho, basically we need explanations and instructions in writing.

Fighting brain fog is futile. I always felt bad for my doctors and embarrassed when they kept trying to explain things to me. I'd pretend to understand so they'd stop. Lol.

Tx .. x
 

Dr.Patient

There is no kinship like the one we share!
Messages
505
Location
USA
Hi @Dr.Patient

I'm not up on med school. Would it really take a month to understand cfs ? We're just several patients rolled into one.

Fwiw. I'd add a 6th reason. Some doctors aren't equipped to recognize the level of cognitive problems pwcs experience. Since we appear coherent, they assume these symptoms are emotional.

Understanding pwcs limited attention spans would make things easier for both doctors and patients. Imho, basically we need explanations and instructions in writing.

Fighting brain fog is futile. I always felt bad for my doctors and embarrassed when they kept trying to explain things to me. I'd pretend to understand so they'd stop. Lol.

Tx .. x

Yes, since I know how the rotations work, one month is appropriate. They would see all types and severity levels, and the one month would be ground into their memories.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
This is an interesting article written by a doctor describing how he feels about seeing patients with chronic disease:

http://more-distractible.org/musings/2010/07/14/a-letter-to-patients-with-chronic-disease

Dear Patients: You have it very hard, much harder than most people understand. Having sat for 16 years listening to the stories, seeing the tiredness in your eyes, hearing you try to describe the indescribable, I have come to understand that I too can't understand what your lives are like. How do you answer the question, "how do you feel?" when you've forgotten what "normal" feels like? How do you deal with all of the people who think you are exaggerating your pain, your emotions, your fatigue? How do you decide when to believe them or when to trust your own body? How do you cope with living a life that won't let you forget about your frailty, your limits, your mortality?

I can't imagine.

But I do bring something to the table that you may not know. I do have information that you can't really understand because of your unique perspective, your battered world. There is something that you need to understand that, while it won't undo your pain, make your fatigue go away, or lift your emotions, it will help you. It's information without which you bring yourself more pain than you need suffer; it's a truth that is a key to getting the help you need much easier than you have in the past. It may not seem important, but trust me, it is.

You scare doctors.

No, I am not talking about the fear of disease, pain, or death. I am not talking about doctors being afraid of the limits of their knowledge. I am talking about your understanding of a fact that everyone else seems to miss, a fact that many doctors hide from: we are normal, fallible people who happen to doctor for a job. We are not special. In fact, many of us are very insecure, wanting to feel the affirmation of people who get better, hearing the praise of those we help. We want to cure disease, to save lives, to be the helping hand, the right person in the right place at the right time.

But chronic unsolvable disease stands square in our way. You don't get better, and it makes many of us frustrated, and it makes some of us mad at you. We don't want to face things we can't fix because it shows our limits. We want the miraculous, and you deny us that chance.

And since this is the perspective you have when you see doctors, your view of them is quite different. You see us getting frustrated. You see us when we feel like giving up. When we take care of you, we have to leave behind the illusion of control, of power over disease. We get angry, feel insecure, and want to move on to a patient who we can fix, save, or impress. You are the rock that proves how easily the ship can be sunk. So your view of doctors is quite different.

Then there is the fact that you also possess something that is usually our domain: knowledge. You know more about your disease than many of us do - most of us do. Your MS, rheumatoid arthritis, end-stage kidney disease, Cushing's disease, bipolar disorder, chronic pain disorder, brittle diabetes, or disabling psychiatric disorder - your defining pain - is something most of us don't regularly encounter. It's something most of us try to avoid. So you possess deep understanding of something that many doctors don't possess. Even doctors who specialize in your disorder don't share the kind of knowledge you can only get through living with a disease. It's like a parent's knowledge of their child versus that of a pediatrician. They may have breadth of knowledge, but you have depth of knowledge that no doctor can possess.

So when you approach a doctor - especially one you've never met before - you come with a knowledge of your disease that they don't have, and a knowledge of the doctor's limitations that few other patients have. You see why you scare doctors? It's not your fault that you do, but ignoring this fact will limit the help you can only get from them. I know this because, just like you know your disease better than any doctor, I know what being a doctor feels like more than any patient could ever understand. You encounter doctors intermittently (more than you wish, perhaps); I live as a doctor continuously.

So let me be so bold as to give you advice on dealing with doctors. There are some things you can do to make things easier, and others that can sabotage any hope of a good relationship:

  1. Don't come on too strong - yes, you have to advocate for yourself, but remember that doctors are used to being in control. All of the other patients come into the room with immediate respect, but your understanding has torn down the doctor-god illusion. That's a good thing in the long-run, but few doctors want to be greeted with that reality from the start. Your goal with any doctor is to build a partnership of trust that goes both ways, and coming on too strong at the start can hurt your chances of ever having that.
  2. Show respect - I say this one carefully, because there are certainly some doctors who don't treat patients with respect - especially ones like you with chronic disease. These doctors should be avoided. But most of us are not like that; we really want to help people and try to treat them well. But we have worked very hard to earn our position; it was not bestowed by fiat or family tree. Just as you want to be listened to, so do we.
  3. Keep your eggs in only a few baskets - find a good primary care doctor and a couple of specialists you trust. Don't expect a new doctor to figure things out quickly. It takes me years of repeated visits to really understand many of my chronic disease patients. The best care happens when a doctor understands the patient and the patient understands the doctor. This can only happen over time. Heck, I struggle even seeing the chronically sick patients for other doctors in my practice. There is something very powerful in having understanding built over time.
  4. Use the ER only when absolutely needed - Emergency room physicians will always struggle with you. Just expect that. Their job is to decide if you need to be hospitalized, if you need emergency treatment, or if you can go home. They might not fix your pain, and certainly won't try to fully understand you. That's not their job. They went into their specialty to fix problems quickly and move on, not manage chronic disease. The same goes for any doctor you see for a short time: they will try to get done with you as quickly as possible.
  5. Don't avoid doctors - one of the most frustrating things for me is when a complicated patient comes in after a long absence with a huge list of problems they want me to address. I can't work that way, and I don't think many doctors can. Each visit should address only a few problems at a time, otherwise things get confused and more mistakes are made. It's OK to keep a list of your own problems so things don't get left out - I actually like getting those lists, as long as people don't expect me to handle all of the problems. It helps me to prioritize with them.
  6. Don't put up with the jerks - unless you have no choice (in the ER, for example), you should keep looking until you find the right doctor(s) for you. Some docs are not cut out for chronic disease, while some of us like the long-term relationship. Don't feel you have to put up with docs who don't listen or minimize your problems. At the minimum, you should be able to find a doctor who doesn't totally suck.
  7. Forgive us - Sometimes I forget about important things in my patients' lives. Sometimes I don't know you've had surgery or that your sister comes to see me as well. Sometimes I avoid people because I don't want to admit my limitations. Be patient with me - I usually know when I've messed up, and if you know me well I don't mind being reminded. Well, maybe I mind it a little.
There's more to read on the article page:
http://more-distractible.org/musings/2010/07/14/a-letter-to-patients-with-chronic-disease
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
@CFS_for_19_years

Great article. We pwcs could use more doctors like this.

It makes me wonder how many doctors are aware of the integrative or functional approach to medicine tho because he talks about having little to offer his chronically ill patients. The integrative / functional group seem more hopeful about our options.

I had no idea there was controversy between these groups until the elimination diet greatly helped my symptoms. It's all very confusing.

Hopefully they can resolve this and do what's best for their patients.

Tc .. x